Basket hilted swords

E.B. Erickson · 18th April 2015, 03:05 AM

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

fernando · 18th April 2015, 11:35 AM

A fellow collector has this one, with a brass hilt.
The pictures are very bad but, if i recall the last time i handled it, it has the inscription Andrea Ferara interspersed with Kings heads.
Do you Gentlemen think this is a genuine period example ?

.

Jim McDougall · 18th April 2015, 01:05 PM

Hi Cathey!!
Thank you so much! It is great to continue examining these fascinating examples of these wonderful swords, and the secrets they hold .
As one of those who is hopelessly obsessed with blades and markings

your example in #106 is definitely an exciting array of these. The brass inlay (latten) is a distinct indicator of earlier (17th c. or earlier) blade markings and of course in the group is the 'running wolf'. The other mark is a version of the 'anchor' device popular in Spain an adopted by Solingen makers . It is of course widely speculated as to whether these had distinct meanings or whether simply a favored flourish to enhance inscriptions or motif. As with most blade markings or decoration there is wide variation probably aligned with the artisans used by certain makers and periods.

The other marks are yet undetermined but seem to correspond to other occult/magical or astrological symbols often favored by makers as allusion to imbuement and/or quality in their blades in these times.

Thank you for the additional clarification on the 'Irish' appellation on the hilts. It seems Claude Blair offered a detailed analysis in his work on basket hilts in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications"ed. David Caldwell) as well.

Eljay, thank you for this interesting example. I always wonder as well on the occurrence of these spherical hilts, which often seem entirely incongruent with certain set styles. I once had one of the British dragoon basket hilts (a huge blade of 40") similar to the one Robson suggested to be a M1788 heavy cavalry officers, and instead of the typical urn type pommel it had a distinct sphere.
Since pommels were I believe often piece work obtained by hilt makers at times, I was wondering if perhaps this might have accounted for these kinds of anomalies.

Fernando,
Nice example!! I think it is certainly 18th century and the blade earlier probably. The 'kings head' (konigskopf) was typically associated with the Wundes famiy of Solingen, and its pairing with the ANDREA FERARA name clearly indicates that 'name' as being used as more of a 'brand' in these blades.

cornelistromp · 18th April 2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

it is Higgins (old) inv nr 1979.04.06

Cathey · 19th April 2015, 02:18 AM

Hi Jasper

Great to see you join the thread, I am always thrilled to see your early swords. Sorry to disappoint you on this one though, I wish it was a rapier blade; the photograph must be misleading as it is a fairly typical back sword blade. With regard to the attribution to Johannes Stam I was going by LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65, as he pictures the exact same anchor mark which is quite elaborate. However, you are correct this alone is not positive proof of the maker.

I don’t have Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926, I do have a publication Geschickte der Klingenindustrie Solingens von Rud Cronau 1885. Sadly for me this publication is in German, however I should persevere as it does cover a range of early marks. Interestingly the one mark it does not include is any version is the Anchor mark. Tell me is Solinger schwertschmiede worth tracking down, I think Amazon have a reprint available, how many pages are there etc.

The mark I would really like to get some idea of if the one attached. Unfortunately this is as clear a picture as we have been able to get and the mark is quite hard to make out. My best guess at this point is a circle on top of a cross, possible just another orb and cross mark.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

cornelistromp · 19th April 2015, 11:48 AM

Hi Cathey,

re: rapier blade
I am definitely not disappointed that it is a backword blade, it is beautiful and also it is more useful here in this basket hilt.
Actually it was the long ricasso that was remarkable for me in a basket hilt, but I have no doubt that this is the original blade.

re: Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz. 1000marks
This book is like Wikipedia, a collection of marks from various old and new literature. it does not indicate which weapon has the marks and copies blindly faulty assumptions out of other literature.
see illustration p65, the anchor matches but the personal marks of Johannes Stam are missing on your blade, and as is generally believed, the anchor is only a decoration and not a trademark.
In this instance, only the anchor gives too little support to ascribe the blade to Johannes Stam.
It also not clear where the 1612 comes from, according weyersberg Johannes Stam is registered in 1640 as a swordsmith.

Re: Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg.
it is a "must have", there are 100pages of the leading sword smiths in Solingen from the 16th and 17th centuries with their different marks.
there is a reprint made in 2012 by Ken Trotman publishing, around Euro20,-

the mark on your blade, the orb on the ricasso, I have seen before.
I hope I will find it again.

best,
Jasper

E.B. Erickson · 19th April 2015, 01:49 PM

Hello Fernando,
Regarding the brass basket posted above, I think that it's OK. Somewhere I've seen something similar (but I can't remember where!), but I don't think that it's a product of the British Isles. The pommel shape and grip treatment seem to echo continental Europe. Perhaps another example of a French basket?

The blade is for sure a good one, and that type with the king's head stamps interspersed with Andrea Ferara is usually found on swords of the first half of the 1700s.

The only thing that has me wondering is what that cast brass scroll ended thing at the shoulder of the blade is? It doesn't look original, how it's fastened to the hilt is a puzzle, and the brass isn't the same color as the rest of the hilt.

--ElJay

E.B. Erickson · 19th April 2015, 01:52 PM

Wait a minute! That cast brass thing is a wall mount for suspending a sword. No wonder I couldn't figure out how it attached to the hilt!! The white background threw me - I didn't realize that it was a wall.

--ElJay

fernando · 19th April 2015, 03:30 PM

Thanks a lot for your comments --ElJay
Yes, i knew that suspension device would be tricky to the eye; but the photographer is not so brilliant and i don't have the means to erase that thing.
I was interested in learning something about this sword as i feel attracted to it, often thinking of trying to buy it from my fellow collector.

18th April 2015, 11:35 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A fellow collector has this one, with a brass hilt. The pictures are very bad but, if i recall the last time i handled it, it has the inscription Andrea Ferara interspersed with Kings heads. Do you Gentlemen think this is a genuine period example ? . Attached Images

19th April 2015, 02:18 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	The last mark Hi Jasper Great to see you join the thread, I am always thrilled to see your early swords. Sorry to disappoint you on this one though, I wish it was a rapier blade; the photograph must be misleading as it is a fairly typical back sword blade. With regard to the attribution to Johannes Stam I was going by LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65, as he pictures the exact same anchor mark which is quite elaborate. However, you are correct this alone is not positive proof of the maker. I don’t have Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926, I do have a publication Geschickte der Klingenindustrie Solingens von Rud Cronau 1885. Sadly for me this publication is in German, however I should persevere as it does cover a range of early marks. Interestingly the one mark it does not include is any version is the Anchor mark. Tell me is Solinger schwertschmiede worth tracking down, I think Amazon have a reprint available, how many pages are there etc. The mark I would really like to get some idea of if the one attached. Unfortunately this is as clear a picture as we have been able to get and the mark is quite hard to make out. My best guess at this point is a circle on top of a cross, possible just another orb and cross mark. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

19th April 2015, 11:48 AM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Cathey, re: rapier blade I am definitely not disappointed that it is a backword blade, it is beautiful and also it is more useful here in this basket hilt. Actually it was the long ricasso that was remarkable for me in a basket hilt, but I have no doubt that this is the original blade. re: Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz. 1000marks This book is like Wikipedia, a collection of marks from various old and new literature. it does not indicate which weapon has the marks and copies blindly faulty assumptions out of other literature. see illustration p65, the anchor matches but the personal marks of Johannes Stam are missing on your blade, and as is generally believed, the anchor is only a decoration and not a trademark. In this instance, only the anchor gives too little support to ascribe the blade to Johannes Stam. It also not clear where the 1612 comes from, according weyersberg Johannes Stam is registered in 1640 as a swordsmith. Re: Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg. it is a "must have", there are 100pages of the leading sword smiths in Solingen from the 16th and 17th centuries with their different marks. there is a reprint made in 2012 by Ken Trotman publishing, around Euro20,- the mark on your blade, the orb on the ricasso, I have seen before. I hope I will find it again. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th April 2015 at 07:32 AM.

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18th April 2015, 03:05 AM	#1
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier. --ElJay Attached Images

18th April 2015, 01:05 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Cathey!! Thank you so much! It is great to continue examining these fascinating examples of these wonderful swords, and the secrets they hold . As one of those who is hopelessly obsessed with blades and markings your example in #106 is definitely an exciting array of these. The brass inlay (latten) is a distinct indicator of earlier (17th c. or earlier) blade markings and of course in the group is the 'running wolf'. The other mark is a version of the 'anchor' device popular in Spain an adopted by Solingen makers . It is of course widely speculated as to whether these had distinct meanings or whether simply a favored flourish to enhance inscriptions or motif. As with most blade markings or decoration there is wide variation probably aligned with the artisans used by certain makers and periods. The other marks are yet undetermined but seem to correspond to other occult/magical or astrological symbols often favored by makers as allusion to imbuement and/or quality in their blades in these times. Thank you for the additional clarification on the 'Irish' appellation on the hilts. It seems Claude Blair offered a detailed analysis in his work on basket hilts in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications"ed. David Caldwell) as well. Eljay, thank you for this interesting example. I always wonder as well on the occurrence of these spherical hilts, which often seem entirely incongruent with certain set styles. I once had one of the British dragoon basket hilts (a huge blade of 40") similar to the one Robson suggested to be a M1788 heavy cavalry officers, and instead of the typical urn type pommel it had a distinct sphere. Since pommels were I believe often piece work obtained by hilt makers at times, I was wondering if perhaps this might have accounted for these kinds of anomalies. Fernando, Nice example!! I think it is certainly 18th century and the blade earlier probably. The 'kings head' (konigskopf) was typically associated with the Wundes famiy of Solingen, and its pairing with the ANDREA FERARA name clearly indicates that 'name' as being used as more of a 'brand' in these blades.

19th April 2015, 01:49 PM	#7
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Hello Fernando, Regarding the brass basket posted above, I think that it's OK. Somewhere I've seen something similar (but I can't remember where!), but I don't think that it's a product of the British Isles. The pommel shape and grip treatment seem to echo continental Europe. Perhaps another example of a French basket? The blade is for sure a good one, and that type with the king's head stamps interspersed with Andrea Ferara is usually found on swords of the first half of the 1700s. The only thing that has me wondering is what that cast brass scroll ended thing at the shoulder of the blade is? It doesn't look original, how it's fastened to the hilt is a puzzle, and the brass isn't the same color as the rest of the hilt. --ElJay

19th April 2015, 01:52 PM	#8
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Wait a minute! That cast brass thing is a wall mount for suspending a sword. No wonder I couldn't figure out how it attached to the hilt!! The white background threw me - I didn't realize that it was a wall. --ElJay

19th April 2015, 03:30 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your comments --ElJay Yes, i knew that suspension device would be tricky to the eye; but the photographer is not so brilliant and i don't have the means to erase that thing. I was interested in learning something about this sword as i feel attracted to it, often thinking of trying to buy it from my fellow collector.