Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 19th April 2015, 02:18 AM

Hi Jasper

Great to see you join the thread, I am always thrilled to see your early swords. Sorry to disappoint you on this one though, I wish it was a rapier blade; the photograph must be misleading as it is a fairly typical back sword blade. With regard to the attribution to Johannes Stam I was going by LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65, as he pictures the exact same anchor mark which is quite elaborate. However, you are correct this alone is not positive proof of the maker.

I don’t have Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926, I do have a publication Geschickte der Klingenindustrie Solingens von Rud Cronau 1885. Sadly for me this publication is in German, however I should persevere as it does cover a range of early marks. Interestingly the one mark it does not include is any version is the Anchor mark. Tell me is Solinger schwertschmiede worth tracking down, I think Amazon have a reprint available, how many pages are there etc.

The mark I would really like to get some idea of if the one attached. Unfortunately this is as clear a picture as we have been able to get and the mark is quite hard to make out. My best guess at this point is a circle on top of a cross, possible just another orb and cross mark.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

cornelistromp · 19th April 2015, 11:48 AM

Hi Cathey,

re: rapier blade
I am definitely not disappointed that it is a backword blade, it is beautiful and also it is more useful here in this basket hilt.
Actually it was the long ricasso that was remarkable for me in a basket hilt, but I have no doubt that this is the original blade.

re: Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz. 1000marks
This book is like Wikipedia, a collection of marks from various old and new literature. it does not indicate which weapon has the marks and copies blindly faulty assumptions out of other literature.
see illustration p65, the anchor matches but the personal marks of Johannes Stam are missing on your blade, and as is generally believed, the anchor is only a decoration and not a trademark.
In this instance, only the anchor gives too little support to ascribe the blade to Johannes Stam.
It also not clear where the 1612 comes from, according weyersberg Johannes Stam is registered in 1640 as a swordsmith.

Re: Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg.
it is a "must have", there are 100pages of the leading sword smiths in Solingen from the 16th and 17th centuries with their different marks.
there is a reprint made in 2012 by Ken Trotman publishing, around Euro20,-

the mark on your blade, the orb on the ricasso, I have seen before.
I hope I will find it again.

best,
Jasper

E.B. Erickson · 19th April 2015, 01:49 PM

Hello Fernando,
Regarding the brass basket posted above, I think that it's OK. Somewhere I've seen something similar (but I can't remember where!), but I don't think that it's a product of the British Isles. The pommel shape and grip treatment seem to echo continental Europe. Perhaps another example of a French basket?

The blade is for sure a good one, and that type with the king's head stamps interspersed with Andrea Ferara is usually found on swords of the first half of the 1700s.

The only thing that has me wondering is what that cast brass scroll ended thing at the shoulder of the blade is? It doesn't look original, how it's fastened to the hilt is a puzzle, and the brass isn't the same color as the rest of the hilt.

--ElJay

E.B. Erickson · 19th April 2015, 01:52 PM

Wait a minute! That cast brass thing is a wall mount for suspending a sword. No wonder I couldn't figure out how it attached to the hilt!! The white background threw me - I didn't realize that it was a wall.

--ElJay

fernando · 19th April 2015, 03:30 PM

Thanks a lot for your comments --ElJay
Yes, i knew that suspension device would be tricky to the eye; but the photographer is not so brilliant and i don't have the means to erase that thing.
I was interested in learning something about this sword as i feel attracted to it, often thinking of trying to buy it from my fellow collector.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th April 2015, 04:23 PM

Salaams All,

If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...e/6917780.stmb

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2015, 05:17 AM

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams All,

If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...e/6917780.stmb

Regards,
Ibrahiim

Well placed note Ibrahiim , and indeed the basket hilt found on this ship, Henry VIII's pride and joy the "Mary Rose", which sank July 19,1545, does set distinct provenance for these in use in England at that time. The other instance would be the example lost on the 'Sea Venture' off the coast of Bermuda in July, 1609, and is well discussed by Dr. Mazansky in his article published in 1995.

Claude Blair in his "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ( in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications", ed. David Caldwell, 1981)..notes that while the basket guard was certainly in use in Scotland by c.1570s at latest (p.188), there is little corroborative evidence prior to c.1617. He concedes that it remains uncertain whether these complex type hilts evolved in England or Scotland, however he states that in 17th century England, the hilts were typically thought to be 'Highland' in origin.

The excellent reference to the connection to the Norwegian 'Sinclair' sabre with basket hilt is also key. Blair (op.cit.p.190) references the ill fated expedition of Scottish mercenaries who were annihilated at Kringelen in Norway Aug. 26, 1612, and the curious misnomer to the term 'Sinclair' used for these sabres. Apparently Sinclair, was actually a Captain and not in command of the unit, it was actually Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.

It seems in other references the use of the Sinclair name was more to politicize the tragic event, and Sinclair was notably connected to an important Scottish clan. Holger Jacobsen (1934) noted there was no indication that these basket hilt sabres were specifically connected to this unit, in fact these were mostly German and Austrian swords on hand for local militias in Norway.

Returning to Blair, on p.186 he notes that the closed hilt or basket guard seemed to have already been in use in England by the 1560s, and the complex nature of the form suggested it had likely been in use there for some time.

It would seem the Mary Rose example well supports this with its established date of 1545, would predate the earliest mention of the 'Highland hilt' in the Inverness Burgh Records (1576) noted by Blair (p.156).
On p.153, Blair cites Holger Jacobsen (1940) who discussed the notable similarity between the construction of the Scottish basket hilt and the late 16th century German sabres with such hilts, proposed by Whitelaw as early as 1902. Jacobsen however included that he felt the hilts were probably of English origin.

To me the ancestry or origin of these famed Scottish basket hilts is not nearly as important as how monumentally distinct and admired they became historically in the hands of the Scottish warriors. Still, these perspectives on their probable evolution remain notably pertinent in comprehensive study of the form.

19th April 2015, 02:18 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	The last mark Hi Jasper Great to see you join the thread, I am always thrilled to see your early swords. Sorry to disappoint you on this one though, I wish it was a rapier blade; the photograph must be misleading as it is a fairly typical back sword blade. With regard to the attribution to Johannes Stam I was going by LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65, as he pictures the exact same anchor mark which is quite elaborate. However, you are correct this alone is not positive proof of the maker. I don’t have Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926, I do have a publication Geschickte der Klingenindustrie Solingens von Rud Cronau 1885. Sadly for me this publication is in German, however I should persevere as it does cover a range of early marks. Interestingly the one mark it does not include is any version is the Anchor mark. Tell me is Solinger schwertschmiede worth tracking down, I think Amazon have a reprint available, how many pages are there etc. The mark I would really like to get some idea of if the one attached. Unfortunately this is as clear a picture as we have been able to get and the mark is quite hard to make out. My best guess at this point is a circle on top of a cross, possible just another orb and cross mark. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

19th April 2015, 11:48 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Cathey, re: rapier blade I am definitely not disappointed that it is a backword blade, it is beautiful and also it is more useful here in this basket hilt. Actually it was the long ricasso that was remarkable for me in a basket hilt, but I have no doubt that this is the original blade. re: Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz. 1000marks This book is like Wikipedia, a collection of marks from various old and new literature. it does not indicate which weapon has the marks and copies blindly faulty assumptions out of other literature. see illustration p65, the anchor matches but the personal marks of Johannes Stam are missing on your blade, and as is generally believed, the anchor is only a decoration and not a trademark. In this instance, only the anchor gives too little support to ascribe the blade to Johannes Stam. It also not clear where the 1612 comes from, according weyersberg Johannes Stam is registered in 1640 as a swordsmith. Re: Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg. it is a "must have", there are 100pages of the leading sword smiths in Solingen from the 16th and 17th centuries with their different marks. there is a reprint made in 2012 by Ken Trotman publishing, around Euro20,- the mark on your blade, the orb on the ricasso, I have seen before. I hope I will find it again. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th April 2015 at 07:32 AM.

19th April 2015, 01:49 PM	#3
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Hello Fernando, Regarding the brass basket posted above, I think that it's OK. Somewhere I've seen something similar (but I can't remember where!), but I don't think that it's a product of the British Isles. The pommel shape and grip treatment seem to echo continental Europe. Perhaps another example of a French basket? The blade is for sure a good one, and that type with the king's head stamps interspersed with Andrea Ferara is usually found on swords of the first half of the 1700s. The only thing that has me wondering is what that cast brass scroll ended thing at the shoulder of the blade is? It doesn't look original, how it's fastened to the hilt is a puzzle, and the brass isn't the same color as the rest of the hilt. --ElJay

19th April 2015, 01:52 PM	#4
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Wait a minute! That cast brass thing is a wall mount for suspending a sword. No wonder I couldn't figure out how it attached to the hilt!! The white background threw me - I didn't realize that it was a wall. --ElJay

19th April 2015, 03:30 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot for your comments --ElJay Yes, i knew that suspension device would be tricky to the eye; but the photographer is not so brilliant and i don't have the means to erase that thing. I was interested in learning something about this sword as i feel attracted to it, often thinking of trying to buy it from my fellow collector.

19th April 2015, 04:23 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All, If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...e/6917780.stmb Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

20th April 2015, 05:17 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams All, If the Mary Rose sank in 1545 what is the situation regarding the basket hilt which was brought up from the wreckage ...Does it mean that the Basket Hilt is English? ....as pointed out on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...e/6917780.stmb Regards, Ibrahiim Well placed note Ibrahiim , and indeed the basket hilt found on this ship, Henry VIII's pride and joy the "Mary Rose", which sank July 19,1545, does set distinct provenance for these in use in England at that time. The other instance would be the example lost on the 'Sea Venture' off the coast of Bermuda in July, 1609, and is well discussed by Dr. Mazansky in his article published in 1995. Claude Blair in his "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ( in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications", ed. David Caldwell, 1981)..notes that while the basket guard was certainly in use in Scotland by c.1570s at latest (p.188), there is little corroborative evidence prior to c.1617. He concedes that it remains uncertain whether these complex type hilts evolved in England or Scotland, however he states that in 17th century England, the hilts were typically thought to be 'Highland' in origin. The excellent reference to the connection to the Norwegian 'Sinclair' sabre with basket hilt is also key. Blair (op.cit.p.190) references the ill fated expedition of Scottish mercenaries who were annihilated at Kringelen in Norway Aug. 26, 1612, and the curious misnomer to the term 'Sinclair' used for these sabres. Apparently Sinclair, was actually a Captain and not in command of the unit, it was actually Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey. It seems in other references the use of the Sinclair name was more to politicize the tragic event, and Sinclair was notably connected to an important Scottish clan. Holger Jacobsen (1934) noted there was no indication that these basket hilt sabres were specifically connected to this unit, in fact these were mostly German and Austrian swords on hand for local militias in Norway. Returning to Blair, on p.186 he notes that the closed hilt or basket guard seemed to have already been in use in England by the 1560s, and the complex nature of the form suggested it had likely been in use there for some time. It would seem the Mary Rose example well supports this with its established date of 1545, would predate the earliest mention of the 'Highland hilt' in the Inverness Burgh Records (1576) noted by Blair (p.156). On p.153, Blair cites Holger Jacobsen (1940) who discussed the notable similarity between the construction of the Scottish basket hilt and the late 16th century German sabres with such hilts, proposed by Whitelaw as early as 1902. Jacobsen however included that he felt the hilts were probably of English origin. To me the ancestry or origin of these famed Scottish basket hilts is not nearly as important as how monumentally distinct and admired they became historically in the hands of the Scottish warriors. Still, these perspectives on their probable evolution remain notably pertinent in comprehensive study of the form.