Basket hilted swords

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim

Salaams Jim...Thank you ! I just per chance happened to have a copy of Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 with that gem of information in it whilst web search showed the banker as having formed one of the band of men ..."Seven Men of Moidart"...who went ashore with the goods and joined Price Charles as one of his officers...

For the swashbuckling story of this gallant convoy please see http://yourphotocard.com/Ascanius/LogDuTeillay.pdf which are the events taken from the actual ships log of the Du Teillay.

Sobieski Family Jewellery.
The Jewellery is linked to the weapons procurement of a certain Scottish /half French banker, Aeneas MacDonald, who appears to have used the treasure as leverage to obtain weapons in France; noted in the above posts...Since Bonnie Prince Charlie later settled in France and Italy it can be perhaps assumed that the Jewellery was useful for that portion of his life in addition..

Prince Charles Edward Stuart. (1720 – 1788)
Prince Charles or 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' as he is more commonly referred to, was a leader in the Jacobite uprising where the House of Stuart fought the House of Hanover to claim the British Throne. This ultimately lead to Prince Charles's defeat at the Battle of Culloden and his exile to Europe..

His mother, Marie-Clementina Sobieska, was the granddaughter of King John III Sobieski of Poland, married to King James III of England in 1719. Upon their marriage Marie-Clementina brought with her a large dowry, several thousand hectares of land and the Sobieski Family Jewellery.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

guess you could always ask them, pub/hotel email address is victoriasuddick@icloud.com

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

guess you could always ask them, pub/hotel email address is victoriasuddick@icloud.com

Salaams kronckew ...I regret they are only the current proprietors of the restaurant... I have hoisted in most of the publications and web based details but nothing indicates a basket except on my last post....however something could turn up.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim for this and the previous detail and links to the clearly complex history surrounding Scotland in these times. Your tenacious searching through these many sources is very much appreciated.

You have mentioned Shotley and Hounslow before a number of times, and often I have wondered if the 'crossed swords' had any connection to the arms used by Solingen using this symbol. Obviously the use of the familiar running wolf on some of the blades from these relocated German makers had to do with their Solingen roots.

As you note, there is no record of any basket hilt in specific connected to either to the earlier Hounslow location of mid 17th nor the later Shotley Bridge location . While it would seem possible that the Hounslow might have some connection, it seems that they were more aligned with hangers and in degree with the so called 'mortuary' semi baskets. Mostly, it was the blades they focused on. With the 'mortuaries' it seems these were primarily backswords (SE) but I have had one which interestingly did have ANDREA FERARA in the fuller. This is most interesting as in that time this name on blades was well known destined on broadswords to Scotland, and here is an English backsword with this blade!

Shotley, mostly associated with hangers as far as I know, except possibly some smallswords, is even less likely to have been involved with basket hilts as they seem to have catered more to civilian market while Hounslow itself had begin in a military context in large degree.

The English makers of the dragoon sword basket type hilts were in Birmingham primarily with Jeffries and Drury, though Harvey may have had some input. This came about mid 18th century, long after Shotley had ended. Prior to this and a good while earlier, military aligned basket hilts were made in garrison cities Edinburgh and Glasgow in larger instance, while some other locations are I believe considered.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Ibrahiim for this and the previous detail and links to the clearly complex history surrounding Scotland in these times. Your tenacious searching through these many sources is very much appreciated.

You have mentioned Shotley and Hounslow before a number of times, and often I have wondered if the 'crossed swords' had any connection to the arms used by Solingen using this symbol. Obviously the use of the familiar running wolf on some of the blades from these relocated German makers had to do with their Solingen roots.

As you note, there is no record of any basket hilt in specific connected to either to the earlier Hounslow location of mid 17th nor the later Shotley Bridge location . While it would seem possible that the Hounslow might have some connection, it seems that they were more aligned with hangers and in degree with the so called 'mortuary' semi baskets. Mostly, it was the blades they focused on. With the 'mortuaries' it seems these were primarily backswords (SE) but I have had one which interestingly did have ANDREA FERARA in the fuller. This is most interesting as in that time this name on blades was well known destined on broadswords to Scotland, and here is an English backsword with this blade!

Shotley, mostly associated with hangers as far as I know, except possibly some smallswords, is even less likely to have been involved with basket hilts as they seem to have catered more to civilian market while Hounslow itself had begin in a military context in large degree.

The English makers of the dragoon sword basket type hilts were in Birmingham primarily with Jeffries and Drury, though Harvey may have had some input. This came about mid 18th century, long after Shotley had ended. Prior to this and a good while earlier, military aligned basket hilts were made in garrison cities Edinburgh and Glasgow in larger instance, while some other locations are I believe considered.

Salaams Jim, Shotley Bridge is an interesting place historically having gone through the industrial revolution but having only retained its market town attributes as all of the heavy industry evapourated...including the sword makers...I think there is a small museum at the Swordmaking House a minutes walk from the Crown and Crossed Swords which tantalisingly carries two big display sign basket swords under a crown...The area is well connected to what would have been border reiver trade in the old days thus both these small factors could point to a Basket Sword situation ...though as you note there is as yet no evidence...and it may only be co incidence.

What I note is the huge gap between the Shotley production and today thus much has been destroyed and more has been forgotten. Hopefully a blade could turn up...Thank you for your post..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I add these website for interest...
http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...ate-xviii.html
AND http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, outstanding note referring to the 'Border Reivers' of these northern regions! These are the unconventional groups that inhabited border regions and in essence did not claim allegiance nor favor to either English nor Scottish nationality. They were independent raiders whose raids and activity was not restricted to either side of these borders.
While Shotley swordsmiths had mostly removed to Birmingham it would not be surprising that local armourers would have been in place locally to keep the widely varied range of arms and armour serviceable.

It seems quite likely many variances in swords might derive from these contexts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, outstanding note referring to the 'Border Reivers' of these northern regions! These are the unconventional groups that inhabited border regions and in essence did not claim allegiance nor favor to either English nor Scottish nationality. They were independent raiders whose raids and activity was not restricted to either side of these borders.
While Shotley swordsmiths had mostly removed to Birmingham it would not be surprising that local armourers would have been in place locally to keep the widely varied range of arms and armour serviceable.

It seems quite likely many variances in swords might derive from these contexts.

Salaams Jim, Whilst they appear to be mainly involved in relieving people of their flocks of sheep and cattle I understand their favourite weapon was the spear or rather the lance. I suspect they were very capable of borrowing their opponents weaponry(permanently !) on their travels but wondered how much they used basket hilts...

I am also fascinated as to the international stepping stones route that the basket hilt sword took in arriving in Scotland... and I hope I can add something in a moment on that subject...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, outstanding note referring to the 'Border Reivers' of these northern regions! These are the unconventional groups that inhabited border regions and in essence did not claim allegiance nor favor to either English nor Scottish nationality. They were independent raiders whose raids and activity was not restricted to either side of these borders.
While Shotley swordsmiths had mostly removed to Birmingham it would not be surprising that local armourers would have been in place locally to keep the widely varied range of arms and armour serviceable.

It seems quite likely many variances in swords might derive from these contexts.

Salaams Jim, I am tracking through various accounts of Border Reivers and note at; http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...r_reivers7.htm

Quote" Chains were drawn 4 or 5 times around the thighs of the horses which helped deflect spear thrusts. A scarf was wrapped around and around the neck for protection against getting one's throat cut. There was no leg armor but thigh-high thick leather riding boots worn with spurs. Sometimes small shields called bucklers were carried. In the early 1500s helmets were worn for protection of the upper part of the face and neck. In the 16th century, these were replaced with light, open helmets called burgonets -- the steill bonnets. These provided protection without a loss of vision. They were peaked on top with protective cheek plates and a flared rim to protect the neck. They were padded inside with leather.

Border Laws required that all men must appear at Muster Days with all arms and armor. The Borderer probably did not show the government on these days all the weapons he had. The lance or the lang spear was the most common weapon and was about 8 to 12 feet in length. Basket hilted broad swords were predominately used among the less wealthy at the end of the 16th century. The nobility wore rapiers and parrying daggers. Dirks, which were long narrow daggers, were carried by everyone, including the clergy.

Longbows and arrows were used even as late as 1580. The Scots also used the bow but not as effectively as the English and preferred a small light crossbow known as the latch.

Scots on foot carried 16 foot pikes. A Jeddart Staff was a 4 foot blade of steel and was slim, providing a long cutting edge with a spike at the bottom for piercing.

Pistols were carried by the Border men but with some trepidation since these weapons were tedious to load and reload and if not in good condition could result in losing a good hand. Also they were not particularly accurate unless at a very close range".Unquote.

From another source at http://wwwborderreiverstories-nebles...reivers_7.html I note;

Quote."Broad swords fitted with basket hilts to protect the hand were in general use and jealously guarded because of their cost by their owners. Often they were handed down from generation to generation. That the sword was of supreme importance can perhaps by gauged from the argument and feud that raged between the Scotts of Teviotdale, Scottish Borders and the Charltons of Hesleyside, Tynedale, Northumberland, England.

In 1596 Thomas Lord Scrope, English West March Warden, when writing to the English Privy Council of his sour relationship with his opposite number on the Scottish side, Sir Walter Scott of Buccleuch, Keeper of Liddesdale, complained that Scott even made an argument for his grandfather’s sword which had been stolen by the English Charlton’s of Hesleyside some years before.

I am led to believe that the present Lord and Lady Charlton are still in possession of this sword today, four hundred years later.

The dirk, a long narrow dagger, in general use, made up the store of the Border Reivers armoury".Unquote.
Below a selection of artwork showing Border Reivers and a map of their operational areas called Marches..separate Clan like regions for the different Reiver groupings. See also http://www.sorbie.net/border_reivers.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.