Basket hilted swords

[Jim McDougall]

Ulfberth thank you so much for posting these amazing works by Petard!!!
This resource by Aries is hard to acquire, cost alone and not sure how many volumes in total, so very grateful for you sharing these....not to mention how intriguing it is to discover French versions of basket hilts!
I had no idea, but makes perfect sense since the Jacobite circumstances.

[Cathey]

Hi Ulfberth,

I agree with Jim these are fabulous drawings, it would be great to access an English translation of what text may have accompanied them in the original book.

Now here is an Odd Basket for consideration.

English Dragoon Basket Hilt?
Date Circa 1760-1780 (18th Century) ?
Nationality British Dragoon Basket (Scottish Regiment) -Scottish Patriotic Blade
Overall Length 107.2cm (42.2 inches)
Blade length 91.4 cm (36 inches)
Blade widest point 3.687 cm (1.5 inches)
Hilt widest point
Inside grip length

Description
English Dragoon Basket Hilt? with a Scottish 36 “ (91.4 cm) back blade with two fullers, double edged for last 11 “ (28.1 cm). Along the top of the area of decoration on the blade are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.”

General Remarks
This sword originally came to Australia from Arbour Antiques London where it was purchased by a friend many years ago. When Arbour received the sword, the blade had been completely bent over at the hilt as if someone had sought to destroy it or at least render it useless. My understanding is that Arbour had the blade reheated and straightened and the sword restored to its current condition. Reheating the blade has removed colour from one side. The sword has a typically English Pommel but there is an area of engraved decoration that does not seem to fit with the sword serving in an English Regiment. Along the top of the area of decoration are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.”

I have difficulty believing that an English soldier would dare carry a blade in the memory of William Wallace, or that a Scot serving in an English regiment would take such a risk. According to Pat Tougher “Scottish Sword and Shield” This sword is an odd one. The pommel and the basket appear to be English dragoon 1760 thru to 1780. The blade he feels is older, possibly a pickup form the battle of Culloden, 1746. He advised that there were many English troops who picked up swords after the battle and kept them as they were better than what they had. Pat has a few in his possession. Unfortunately with no writing on them.

Haydn Vesty, Australian Waterloo Sword Collector, believes it is a 1745 Etched Patriotic Blade, for an Officer in Scottish Dragoon Guards regiment, which were part of the British Cavalry.

I still think it would be either a very brave or rather stupid Scott to carry such a thing in an English regiment.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Cathey,
That is an odd one. If it weren't for the etching one would just ID it as an English cav/dragoon sword. What I really find unusual is the reference to Wallace.

Haydn Vesty's hypothesis seems like it would work, but are there any other examples of this type of etched motto on a sword from the 1700s so we can verify his opinion?

Here's another hypothesis: there was a revival of interest in all things Scottish in England in the first half of the 1800s (I'm not sure I've got the date right). Perhaps the blade was etched at that time. So you'd have a good baskethilted sword from the 1700s with later commemorative etching. But again, are there similar etched designs dating from the Scottish revival?

Just rambling. --ElJay

[Jim McDougall]

I personally echo Eljay's comments, this type of blade is indeed of 18th century English dragoon style, and of course Cathey's observations on the hilt as English and period are spot on.

There is an old 'axiom' that I have seen issued by Anthony Darling (I believe) which says loosely if it isn't a broadsword (meaning double edged, the term was used for both SE and DE in the 18th c.) then it isn't Scottish.
This seems to hold true as the dragoon swords produced for the British regiments were in accord with accepted military standards using single edged backsword blades.
It is a truly romantic notion that this blade might have come from the tragedy at Culloden, wielded by a patriotic Scot, but unfortunately not likely.
This tragic day was of course furthered by the disrespectful and patently heinous act of dismantling the broadswords of fallen Scots there, and using some of them in a garish garden fence.

As Eljay has well noted, the style of etching and likely even the content seem to correspond to the heightened awareness and revival of things Scottish in the Victorian era. In these times of course there was great attention to Scottish lore, history and fashion . Even the Royals would wear kilts etc. and in the military, officers in particular were rightfully proud of their Scottish heritage.
The '45 was a century or more in the past, and Scottish heritage was not only flaunted but a mark of prestige.

I think this blade more likely decorated later, though the blade seems of the period of the hilt. Despite the fact it is a sword of troopers grade in the hilt, it does not seem unlikely that an officer in a British cavalry unit might have had this sword beautifully inscribed reflecting the pride of the true Scots and their heritage.

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Jim,
If Darling said that, then I'd have to disagree with someone considered an authority. Take a look at most of the swords produced by Walter Allan: backswords are in the majority. And how about the Scottish Turcael?

Just to get a sampling of how many back versus broadswords one finds in a Scottish context, I got out my copy of "Culloden; the Swords and the Sorrows". Out of 50 Scottish baskets shown, 20 have backsword blades. That's 40%. And, consider the blades that have Scottish patriotic mottos ("Prosperity to Scotland and No Union"; "God save King James") that date from the early 1700s: they're all backsword blades (well, the ones I've seen are, but I imagine there's a broadsword out there somewhere).

Concerning English cav/dragoon swords, the backsword does predominate in the 1700s, but there are still broadsword blades in an English cavalry context. In "Culloden", sword 1.52, while not a baskethilt, is an English cav sword. I think that one of these is in Neumann as well. And while the troopers mainly received back blades, the officers could do what they pleased, so you do find their swords with broadsword blades. Maybe later I'll get out Mazansky and do some tallying!

--ElJay

[Jim McDougall]

Great Eljay!! Here I thought I had this all figured out!!!
I would have to dig a bit to find those words cited, but after your beautifully supported rebuttal, I would hate to tarnish whoever it was who wrote them.

Naturally, with arms as with most things, there are countless exceptions for every rule and I must admit that most desperate attempts at neatly and concisely cataloguing, classifying and rigidly identifying certain forms are usually pretty futile. I will say however that Oakeshott, Norman and Mazansky did set some pretty reliable 'guidelines'. Even Norman however steered clear of blades due to the constant flux of trade blades and refurbishing using incongruent blade forms during the often extending working lives of sword hilts.

Thank you for the clarification, which clearly reflects the tremendous knowledge you have on these swords gained through decades of experience. Nicely stated, and it's great having your posts here!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I went back to my file of correspondence with the Baron of Earlshall, and noted that this sword was one he requested additional pictures of for his book back in 2007. The Baron dated the sword and blade 1745-65, he also thought the engraving may have been added around 1790. I still query the sanity of anyone having this particular inscription added to a blade they intended to carry in a British regiment. William Wallace was after all executed as a traitor to the English King, not something easily forgiven. Also, there had obviously been an attempt to destroy the blade when it surfaced in England, so evidently someone was far from happy about it.

Having seen the French basket hilts posted I began to wonder if this sword was actually carried by an Ex-Pat Scott living in France after Culloden. I believe Scots fought on both sides of the Culloden campaign, perhaps this one became Patriotic after he had left the country, sadly we will never really know.

With regard to Darlings comment “if it isn't a broadsword then it isn't Scottish” has probably been taken out of context. Jim as you say the word broadsword is often applied to blades that are actually backswords. I suppose it’s a bit like calling a basket hilt a claymore, when claymores where actually two handed swords.

In the end I concur with Eljay, the Scots had both Broadsword Blades and Backsword blades, and as most of these where imported they have no real relevance to whether a sword is Scottish or English. Generally I usually look at the pommel, if it is the common bun shaped it is likely English. Then of course there are all the other variations Spiracle, Cone shaped, flat bun etc. I have just popped a letter in the post to the Baron; hopefully he will confirm a publishing date for the first volume of his book soon.

While I have your attention Eljay, a while back you posed a question of Sword forum, when did the S disappear from the SH stamped in the Fox mark on Harvey blades, did you ever find the answer?

Cheers Cathey and Rex