Basket hilted swords

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .

Salaams Jim, In reference to your details about The French in terms of Basket Hilts...I note from Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 refers. Quote" Charles's expedition was financed by a combination of private venture capital largely put up by *Aeneas MacDonald. an expatriate Scot with a banking house in Paris, and credit borrowed on the security of the Sobieski Jewels, a legacy from his mother Clementina. It paid for the modest arsenal of 20 field pieces, 3,500 assorted guns, 2,400 broadswords, which was loaded on two ships berthed at Nantes in June 1745. More than half this arsenal and the 100 Marines aboard the Elizabeth failed to reach Scotland for they had to turn back after an encounter with an English Man o' War off the Lizard, and only the Du Teillay reached Arisaig on 3 August". Unquote.


This illustrates a conduit through which weapons were entering Scotland and moreover the potential for French and probably German swords being supplied. It throws into the mix broadsword variants from the entire European region and goes some way in showing the vast variety of weapons that even today we are confronted with.

*For more on the amazing story of Aeneas Macdonald see http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascaniu...20Archives.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim

Salaams Jim...Thank you ! I just per chance happened to have a copy of Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 with that gem of information in it whilst web search showed the banker as having formed one of the band of men ..."Seven Men of Moidart"...who went ashore with the goods and joined Price Charles as one of his officers...

For the swashbuckling story of this gallant convoy please see http://yourphotocard.com/Ascanius/LogDuTeillay.pdf which are the events taken from the actual ships log of the Du Teillay.

Sobieski Family Jewellery.
The Jewellery is linked to the weapons procurement of a certain Scottish /half French banker, Aeneas MacDonald, who appears to have used the treasure as leverage to obtain weapons in France; noted in the above posts...Since Bonnie Prince Charlie later settled in France and Italy it can be perhaps assumed that the Jewellery was useful for that portion of his life in addition..

Prince Charles Edward Stuart. (1720 – 1788)
Prince Charles or 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' as he is more commonly referred to, was a leader in the Jacobite uprising where the House of Stuart fought the House of Hanover to claim the British Throne. This ultimately lead to Prince Charles's defeat at the Battle of Culloden and his exile to Europe..

His mother, Marie-Clementina Sobieska, was the granddaughter of King John III Sobieski of Poland, married to King James III of England in 1719. Upon their marriage Marie-Clementina brought with her a large dowry, several thousand hectares of land and the Sobieski Family Jewellery.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

guess you could always ask them, pub/hotel email address is victoriasuddick@icloud.com

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

guess you could always ask them, pub/hotel email address is victoriasuddick@icloud.com

Salaams kronckew ...I regret they are only the current proprietors of the restaurant... I have hoisted in most of the publications and web based details but nothing indicates a basket except on my last post....however something could turn up.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All...This is an interesting article below. I note that the author makes reference to the Shotley Bridge swordmaking centre, however, I have seen no examples of Basket Hilts from that stable...Not counting the two on the outside Wall of the local Hotel; "The Crown and Crossed Swords". (Owned at the time by the sword makers family) Whilst that could indicate English Basket swords I have seen no evidence other than below.

http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim for this and the previous detail and links to the clearly complex history surrounding Scotland in these times. Your tenacious searching through these many sources is very much appreciated.

You have mentioned Shotley and Hounslow before a number of times, and often I have wondered if the 'crossed swords' had any connection to the arms used by Solingen using this symbol. Obviously the use of the familiar running wolf on some of the blades from these relocated German makers had to do with their Solingen roots.

As you note, there is no record of any basket hilt in specific connected to either to the earlier Hounslow location of mid 17th nor the later Shotley Bridge location . While it would seem possible that the Hounslow might have some connection, it seems that they were more aligned with hangers and in degree with the so called 'mortuary' semi baskets. Mostly, it was the blades they focused on. With the 'mortuaries' it seems these were primarily backswords (SE) but I have had one which interestingly did have ANDREA FERARA in the fuller. This is most interesting as in that time this name on blades was well known destined on broadswords to Scotland, and here is an English backsword with this blade!

Shotley, mostly associated with hangers as far as I know, except possibly some smallswords, is even less likely to have been involved with basket hilts as they seem to have catered more to civilian market while Hounslow itself had begin in a military context in large degree.

The English makers of the dragoon sword basket type hilts were in Birmingham primarily with Jeffries and Drury, though Harvey may have had some input. This came about mid 18th century, long after Shotley had ended. Prior to this and a good while earlier, military aligned basket hilts were made in garrison cities Edinburgh and Glasgow in larger instance, while some other locations are I believe considered.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Ibrahiim for this and the previous detail and links to the clearly complex history surrounding Scotland in these times. Your tenacious searching through these many sources is very much appreciated.

You have mentioned Shotley and Hounslow before a number of times, and often I have wondered if the 'crossed swords' had any connection to the arms used by Solingen using this symbol. Obviously the use of the familiar running wolf on some of the blades from these relocated German makers had to do with their Solingen roots.

As you note, there is no record of any basket hilt in specific connected to either to the earlier Hounslow location of mid 17th nor the later Shotley Bridge location . While it would seem possible that the Hounslow might have some connection, it seems that they were more aligned with hangers and in degree with the so called 'mortuary' semi baskets. Mostly, it was the blades they focused on. With the 'mortuaries' it seems these were primarily backswords (SE) but I have had one which interestingly did have ANDREA FERARA in the fuller. This is most interesting as in that time this name on blades was well known destined on broadswords to Scotland, and here is an English backsword with this blade!

Shotley, mostly associated with hangers as far as I know, except possibly some smallswords, is even less likely to have been involved with basket hilts as they seem to have catered more to civilian market while Hounslow itself had begin in a military context in large degree.

The English makers of the dragoon sword basket type hilts were in Birmingham primarily with Jeffries and Drury, though Harvey may have had some input. This came about mid 18th century, long after Shotley had ended. Prior to this and a good while earlier, military aligned basket hilts were made in garrison cities Edinburgh and Glasgow in larger instance, while some other locations are I believe considered.

Salaams Jim, Shotley Bridge is an interesting place historically having gone through the industrial revolution but having only retained its market town attributes as all of the heavy industry evapourated...including the sword makers...I think there is a small museum at the Swordmaking House a minutes walk from the Crown and Crossed Swords which tantalisingly carries two big display sign basket swords under a crown...The area is well connected to what would have been border reiver trade in the old days thus both these small factors could point to a Basket Sword situation ...though as you note there is as yet no evidence...and it may only be co incidence.

What I note is the huge gap between the Shotley production and today thus much has been destroyed and more has been forgotten. Hopefully a blade could turn up...Thank you for your post..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I add these website for interest...
http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...ate-xviii.html
AND http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.