Basket hilted swords

[Cathey]

Hi LaEspadaAncha

Very nice sword, I have not seen a pattern sword actually marked to the 42nd before. Now you have me thinking abaout the black watch I will post the first of three that I have.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment

English basket-hilted backsword A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, older straight single edged fullered blade marked FARARA. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an ?) with special button, wire bound leather grip.

If anyone can work out what is on the pommel I would be very grateful. I think they are numbers.

Cheers Cathey

[celtan]

Beautiful sword. I know there are a couple Black Watch swords around here, captured in 1797. I believe one is in Government hands, and out of reach for mere mortals, but I think I might have seen it once. There might be another in private hands, I'll check if its still around and hasn't left via the EB way. If I find it, I'll post some pics.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi LaEspadaAncha

Very nice sword, I have not seen a pattern sword actually marked to the 42nd before. Now you have me thinking abaout the black watch I will post the first of three that I have.

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment

English basket-hilted backsword A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, older straight single edged fullered blade marked FARARA. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an ?) with special button, wire bound leather grip.

If anyone can work out what is on the pommel I would be very grateful. I think they are numbers.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey and Chris thank you so much!!!! This is absolutely wonderful, I've been hoping to get something going on Scottish basket hilts, and you both come in with Black Watch examples!!!!! Magnificent examples both, and Cathey, thank you for the comprehensive and detailed bibliography on the subject.
Its great to know that another book on Scottish baskethilts is in process, and this is long awaited, especially on those developmental styles up until the '45. Naturally after that and the proscription, most baskethilts fell into the military classification. As noted, the Mazansky reference is probably one of the most comprehensive resources on typology to date.

Cathey, thank you for sharing the outstanding example of these very early basket hilts. There has always been a great deal of confusion concerning the development of the Scottish baskethilt, and I think Claude Blair has done a great job on clarifying much of it in his work in the David Caldwell book.
Naturally much of the nonsense that was once held, such as the ancestry of the baskethilt deriving from the schiavona of the Dalmatians in Venice, which arose in the romanticized notions of some early collectors, has been put to rest.

One thing I would really like to learn more on, and hopefully we can develop here, is perspective on the symbolism often imbued in the work in these Scottish hilts. Whitelaw was probably the first to suggest that Jacobite symbols were covertly emplaced in the piercings and styling in these hilts, and to my knowledge this subject has not been approached in any depth since.

I recall years ago the subject intrigued me, and I set out on a course trying to discover more on this esoteric symbolism. One of the most interesting to me at the time was that of the heart shaped piercings in the saltires of the hilts. I contacted a number of sources including Professor Zygulski in Poland and Mr. Blair himself, and while they considered the subject interesting, conceded it had not been sufficiently researched to comment. As my search continued even Dr. Mazansky, whose notably important book was in progress at the time, pointed out that his interest was more in classification and typology.

Some time ago there were some discussions brought up concerning Jacobite symbols, one being the five point star, but stalled far before productive ideas gained impetus. The subject has since been dormant to the best of my knowledge.
I am hoping that here might look into the development of the Scottish hilts, the styling and forms as well as the symbolism I have mentioned.

With these outstanding examples of these Black Watch baskethilts, it is interesting to consider the profound influence of the heirloom Scottish hilts to the swords used by this incredibly important Scottish regiment.

The military swords in the 1750-70 period were typically produced in England by makers such as Jeffries and Drury in Birmingham if memory serves, and were faithfully designed with Scottish style baskethilts, as seen with the example shown by Cathey, but clearly with heirloom blade as seen with ANDREA FERARA markings. If I am not mistaken, these type hilts were often attributed to the Black Watch, as her excellent example supports.

Manolo, absolutely fascinating to hear of these Black Watch baskethilts there!!! I hope you can find more on them. It seems this regiment was quite represented in the America's, and it would be great to know more on thier presence there in San Juan....it seems I once saw an article about them in Georgia (USA).

It should be noted that during the 18th century, the basket hilt sword was favored for the cavalry, and prevalent with dragoon regiments such as the Royal North British Dragoons (who became known as the Royal Scots Greys).
An interesting feature on many of these hilts is an oval aperture in the hilt which is still debated as to its purpose.

The outstanding example of Black Watch baskethilt that Chris has shared here with regimentally marked hilt, appears to be a heirloom sword, which is a distinct rarity considering the confiscation of weapons after the '45. There is a lot of history here!

It is important to note that the name 'Black Watch' has nothing to do with dark colored tartans or any of those type associations. In the parlance of the times, the term 'black' referred to semantics such as hidden, covert or unknown, and this unit evolved essentially from secret police type groups within the clans. This same application is seen in the term 'skean dubh' for the small knife hidden traditionally in the Highlander stocking. The term 'dubh' in Gaelic = black, literally, but again meant hidden or unseen...skean= knife.
It is said that after the treachery at Glencoe, where Highlanders who had laid down thier arms in a visit were slain, that a small knife kept them armed even after thier regular arms were surrendered.

Thank you again Cathey and Chris!!!!! Fantastic thread and examples!!!

All the very best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Time to post another one

Type of Weapon BASKET-HILT
Date Circa 1714-1750 (18th Century)
Nationality English/Scottish Grenadier Company
Over Length Overall 101.5 cm
Blade length blade 87cm
Blade widest point Width 4cm at widest point near hilt.
Marks, etc Mark on Sword blade, possibly German trade mark.

Description BASKET-HILT English-Scottish 1714-1750 Brass hilted backsword, makers mark and British broad arrow signifying government property on both sides of blade. English Dragoon, plain tapering single edged blade. The open “S” design was adopted for brass-hilted horseman’s swords. This one has a three-quarter basket and a modified ovoid pommel. The quillon is omitted, but the counter guard’s bar bend out on both corners to protect the hand in that area. Its straight single edged blade has a 23.5 cm false edge and a 64 cm fuller.

General Remarks
Note: In the lately discovered regimental History of the Queens Own Hussars (7th Light dragoons) by C.R.B. Barrett and published in tow volumes in 1914, this type of sword is stated to have been used by that regiment, but at a date no later than 1714.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, this brass basket hilt is pretty fantastic!
I really like the professional format in which you present these, and its great to have them shared here as references, it really is very much appreciated.

I think the period you propose is quite accurate.Interestingly Anthony Darling in 1974 noted that British brass hilted cavalry swords are rarely seen, but then curiously notes that the 3rd Kings Own Regiment of Dragoons had them (not necessarily of this type). I agree with the grenadier assessment you note, and would think of this as an English rather than Scottish basket hilt.

While Mazansky is great in assigning classifications, there is little information added in order to accomplish any pertinant research other than noting his classification numerals for identification. It would be helpful if the black and white photos noted whether the hilts are brass or not, as with the examples of this hilt shown. The book overall is outstanding as a reference for typology of basket type hilts, but for that aspect alone, and I really look forward to a reference on basket hilts with some attention to symbolism and historical details.

The interesting blade marking certainly suggests a Solingen blade, and this 'anchor' type mark is closely associated with devices like this in merchants marks, as well as makers marks of the late 16th through the 17th century. Despite these cross and orb, anchor, cross and patibulum type devices being associated with certain makers it is believed many became simply ornamental as talismanic marks or of course implied quality.

Where is the arrow marking situated?

Again Cathey thank you so much for these outstanding posts!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Rikkn]

Here is one for you Cathey ..... This one was a prop for the 60's British T.V. series " The Avenger " ( hung on the wall of John Steeds office ).

[Rikkn]

Added picture - didn't work first time.

[Rikkn]

Trying again.....

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rikkn

Here is one for you Cathey ..... This one was a prop for the 60's British T.V. series " The Avenger " ( hung on the wall of John Steeds office ).

Hey man, who can remember the 60's!!!???
Really though, gotta love the drapery rod quillon terminals.
Thanks Rikkn,

All the best,
Jim

[victoriansword]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Date Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment

English basket-hilted backsword A Scottish military basket hilted backsword issued to the 42nd Highlanders, circa 1750-1770, older straight single edged fullered blade marked FARARA. Regulation hilt, panels pierced with triangular and circular openings. Truncated conical pommel (marked with an ?) with special button, wire bound leather grip.

If anyone can work out what is on the pommel I would be very grateful. I think they are numbers.

Cheers Cathey

Why are these frequently attributed to the 42nd even without regimental markings? Is it because the blades are not of the Jefferys/Drury backsword type and therefore presumed to be earlier (when the 42nd were the only Highland regiment in the British Army)?

Thank you,
VS

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by victoriansword

Why are these frequently attributed to the 42nd even without regimental markings? Is it because the blades are not of the Jefferys/Drury backsword type and therefore presumed to be earlier (when the 42nd were the only Highland regiment in the British Army)?

Thank you,
VS

I think that the 'hilt form' is what is attributed to the 42nd, which is the collective regimental designation for the "Black Watch" battalions which were formed in 1739 as the 43rd but later renumbered 42nd. It seems there are few of these regimentally marked, but the hilt form is well established as being produced by Nathaniel Jeffries (3500 swords in 1759) and as a 'pattern' of 1757 . The Highland units comprised of 42nd went to North America in 1758 (to 1767) with enlisted men carrying these in French-Indian war.

Later, the last purchase of these was in 1775, and after battle of Long Island in 1776, the swords were collected and stored. The Black Watch at the end of the war went to Nova Scotia in 1783, and swords were only carried by officers and NCO's.

By 1770s, Dru Drury had taken over the business and both he and Nathaniel Jeffries had produced these swords.

I think this is the reason for the collective classification of these particular enlisted mans basket hilt as 'Black Watch' is because of this rather broad classification for the Highland Regiments in America using them.

This is a very large thread so not sure which post you are referring to as far as the sword with Farara . Most of the blades are marked Jefries or Drury and if Farara it would be an import from Solingen.

[victoriansword]

Thank you, Jim. I can understand the hilt form being attributed to the 42nd. I’ve seen some sales listings which seem to imply the swords (with non-Jefferys/Drury blades) are for the 42nd. Without regimental markings or other very strong evidence, I personally wouldn’t confidently state that a sword with this pattern hilt was used by someone in the 42nd.

Thanks again,
VS

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by victoriansword

Thank you, Jim. I can understand the hilt form being attributed to the 42nd. I’ve seen some sales listings which seem to imply the swords (with non-Jefferys/Drury blades) are for the 42nd. Without regimental markings or other very strong evidence, I personally wouldn’t confidently state that a sword with this pattern hilt was used by someone in the 42nd.

Thanks again,
VS

I agree VS, that would be a bit irresponsible to classify any type of sword to a regiment etc. without markings or provenance, though it is OK to note that it is 'of the type' used accordingly. What I was noting is that Jeffries and later Drury were prolific suppliers of this munitions grade hilt form (it seems Harvey had a few).

I have one that I've had since the 70s which was remounted with a M1788 light cavalry saber blade, and would suspect it was taken from the stores of these collected after 1784 when they ceased being issued to infantry.
Possibly it was remounted for militia or yeomanry during the 1793+ concerns over possible French invasion etc. hard to say really, but pretty interesting saber.

I got most info from "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784". Anthony Darling, 1988.

[victoriansword]

Jim,
I was also using Darling as a reference, which is why I was confused since Darling is careful to not offer conjecture and only states regimental affiliation when his examples have the proper markings. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and perspective on these interesting early regimental swords,

All the best,
VS

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by victoriansword

Jim,
I was also using Darling as a reference, which is why I was confused since Darling is careful to not offer conjecture and only states regimental affiliation when his examples have the proper markings. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and perspective on these interesting early regimental swords,

All the best,
VS

Absolutely, and as you well note, Darling was extremely cautious, in fact as you know, he had that one instance of '42' on the one example, which was noted as specifically 'unusual'. Though I've learned so much all these years, I still learn virtually every day, thanks to queries and discussions as here with you.

The regimental markings situation with British weapons in the 18th century are fascinating because they are so mysterious and not necessarily standardized nor always accurately recorded.