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14th April 2015, 11:11 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 116
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Well, I am an amateur on these swords and know little technically about them but they are some beautiful blades. That's pretty much the sum of my "input".
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15th April 2015, 02:17 AM
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#2 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,193
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Quote:
Thank you so much! Very much agreed, the blades are intriguing, and offer us much toward learning more on the history of each sword as a whole. On that note, I would ask more on a question Cathey directed to Eljay (post #89) concerning the Samuel Harvey mark often seen on British dragoon blades, in many cases initials SH in the running wolf. It seems that at some point the 'S' was dropped and the 'H' stood alone on the 'wolf' (fox as termed in England). I tried to find what I could on the Birmingham swordsmith Samuel Harvey, which apparently was the name of Samuel Sr. (b.1698) ; junior, and his son the third. Senior died in 1778; junior in 1795 and grandson in 1810. Since all three had the same name , that would not be the cause of the omission of the S. It would seem that there were a number of variations in marks, in that a slotted hilt (c.1780) had a crown over H/vey....some were marked S.Harvey with no fox.....some cavalry blades were inscribed Harvey and one example (I think in Neumann) has a fox with only the H, dating from 1750-68. Does anyone have more data on variations of Harvey stamps? While on many types of swords, some of the British dragoon basket hilts had Harvey blades......any examples? |
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15th April 2015, 07:36 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Jim, Yes!!....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks at #196  There is another with just an H inside the Running Fox at#15 ON http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?86414-Samuel-Harvey-question-(British-sword-maker) Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 15th April 2015 at 11:43 AM. |
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16th April 2015, 09:31 PM
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#4 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,193
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Quote:
Thanks so much Ibrahiim, and I was going through old notes last night and found some discussions in which Eljay was indeed included and my notes from 2008. Apparantly there were notable variations in the stamps and inscriptions used by Samuel Harvey Sr,; Junior, and grandson the third. Many had the name or initial and no fox, but the fox with SH was well known, in c.1750. The fox with simple 'H' seems an anomaly as the number of them seems limited. In my thinking, various means of marking and signing blades was not necessarily a chronological development, so trying to establish a date period with a mark probably not that reliable. I know that is the case with the running wolf marks of Passau/ Solingen contrary to the Wagner plate showing examples with period. These were pretty much free form and varied widely in any time of application. PS thanks for the link to that thread.....the good ole days!
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17th April 2015, 04:12 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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English Basket Hilted Backsword (Irish Hilt)
Hi Guys,
When it comes to blade marks this sword has a huge variety of them. Date Circa 1610-40 Overall Length 39 ¾” 111cm Blade length 34 1/8” 86.7 cm Blade widest point 1 1/8” 2.8 cm Hilt widest point 4 ½” 11.6 cm Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.2 cm Marks, etc. running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark Description English basket hilt sword of early form, approx. 102cm overall length with approx. 86cm straight backsword blade. Wire bound fish skin grip, steel guard of early type with the unusual feature of a loop for a sword knot in the Spherical pommel. The single edged blade with a single broad fuller in inlaid in pattern with the running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark and what appears to be a cross and circle near the hilt. General Remarks Complex Anchor Mark looks like that of Johannes Stam Circa 1612 Germania References: LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65 MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS. Pp67 MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army Pp122 OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR “by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century. Cheers Cathey and Rex |
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17th April 2015, 09:50 AM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams all ... Just bring on the pictures I was talking about....Highlander Mercs at Stettin with the Swedish Army in 1630, A skit by the English at the time of the Jacobite Rebellion, Sword Styles on a Kelso Abbey Charter 12thC? ...which by accident triggers the question when did the Basket Hilt and Sword appear in Scottish hands? It is interesting that the sketch at Stettin shows no basket swords and I attach the other two pictures since the weapons shown are of that period and for interest....and comment.
My suggestion is that as the Highlanders were referred to as Irishmen that the term migrated later when referring to the Irish Basket Hilt when in fact there was no such thing. As a general pointer I tend to agree with the Gaalic connection but I doubt if there was ever an Inniskillin Irish Sword as such. I suppose that there could have been the odd one off item but insofar as a mass bulk store of Irish Basket Hilts ...no I don't think so. Regarding the S and what initially appear as Fleur De Lys shapes on Baskets ...this is also not as I first thought since it is clear from references like MAZANSKY that the S shape was purely coincidental and stood for no word such as Scotland or Stirling but was a very effective blocking shape easily arrived at on the nose of the anvil...The Fleur de Lys having nothing to do with the romantic idea of that design linking it to France (rather unfortunately in my opinion) but simply to bull horns. An excellent idea to keep it all together here as one big thread and Cathey has reminded me with her excellent opener at #1 that would it be possible to have all/most of the main Bibliography references at the front end automatically attached ?...Assuming that there is a program that will do that...and as a humble request to the Forum electronic Wizards... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. 
Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th April 2015 at 10:59 AM. |
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17th April 2015, 10:42 AM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams All...As a footnote to the above post please note that in the 30 years war in which Stettin was won by the Swedish Empire; Solingen was under extreme pressure and the net result (including the destruction of the city) insofar as sword transmission was the migration to Shotley Bridge of some of the great Sword Makers of Solingen..
It may not be against the laws of possibility that German Swords were taken back to Scotland by the Mercenaries at Stettin. Not with standing the considerable effect of the Sinclair situation..and that of the Walloon Sword and its influence please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword not to mention Andrew Ferrera ... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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18th April 2015, 03:22 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,060
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Quote:
Hi Cathey, beautiful basket hilt mounted with a beautiful German imported rapier blade. it's nice to see that rapier blades with a blunt ricasso were also used on basket hilts because it is not possible to bend the index finger around the ricasso due to the basket, so the ricasso has no function here. This diamond shaped rigid blade is ideal for the thrust. Anchors are often wrongly perceived as a makersmark, however these anchors are purely decorative and placed for example, at the end of a fuller, or in the middle of a diamond shaped blade. Attribution to Johannes Stam can not be made merely on basis of a similar anchor and without his other marks the typical IS under a crown. In Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926 ,p 27 is a Solingen blade described with an almost identical in copper inlaid Passau wolf and orband cross .see image this blade is attributed by Weyersberg to Johannes kirschbaum. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 18th April 2015 at 03:32 PM. |
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30th August 2015, 03:42 PM
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#9 | |
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Member
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Jim, I stumbled upon this http://drbenjaminchurchjr.blogspot.c...3_archive.html which examines the Hounslow Factory(and a possible copy of a sword in the USA) and indicates that the H in the Fox is from that Foundry...thus perhaps not the Harvey designation. I have somewhere in a pile of notes a sword photo with the Harvey stamp in a block with HAR then VEY underneath. Salaams Cathey ~ May this have a bearing on your #154 and #156. The single H being for Hounslow not Harvey? Quote" A "Hounslow Mark" was placed on a sword manufactured in Great Britain by the Hounslow Sword Factory, established in 1629 when a number of German swordsmiths emigrated from the continent to England to begin work at a sword factory, located in Hounslow about 12 miles just to the west of London, that was established by an entrepreneur named Benjamin Stone. The different swordmakers put their individual marks on the blades they manufactured but some put their names on instead. Many blades were left unmarked. Not a great deal is known about the individual marks but the swords produced by the Hounslow factory were the best made in England, even if they did not quite match the quality of the swords made on the continent. The Hounslow factory made thousands of blades and swords".Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th August 2015 at 04:05 PM. |
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6th September 2015, 02:18 AM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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Fox with H = Hounslow?
Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker. It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark. One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey. If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something. Cheers Cathey |
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6th September 2015, 06:07 AM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
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Howard Basket Hilted Officers Sword
Date: 1740-55
Nationality: British Overall Length: 103.5 cm (40.7 inches) Blade length: 87.4 cm (34.4 inches) Blade widest point: 3.673 cm (1.4 inches) Hilt widest point: 10.6 cm (4.2 inches) Inside grip length: 9.5 cm (3.7 inches) Marks, etc.: Mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf Description The hilt is constructed of fine iron cage work three quarter guard formed of a vertical and horizontal arrangement of narrow bars joined at the top by three scrolled bars, each with pierced diamond-shaped central panel, to a ring beneath the pommel. The spaces beneath the guard with three openwork hearts. There are a number of very old period repairs to some of the bars and one of the front bars has a crack toward the blade. The grip is leather warped with brass wire. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. The broadsword blade has three short central fullers and bears the mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf mark”. General Remarks Described by the Baron of Earlshall as “An English Cavalry sword, very probably for an Officer in the Household Cavalry and dating from 1740-55. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. However, it has an extremely good 17th century double edge blade mounted.” The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards. References: Bonhams Knightsbridge Wednesday 26th November 2008 London lot 89 pp33. NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S WALLACE, John SCOTTISH SWORDS AND DIRKS plate 43 Cheers Cathey and Rex |
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8th September 2015, 07:27 PM
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#12 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,193
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Quote:
I also looked back into material on Hounslow, and found that this would not have corresponded with contemporary Hounslow practices in markings. While for a time I thought that Hounslow did not use the 'wolf' or 'fox' markings, I found contrary evidence in that they did indeed use the familiar running wolf chiseled mark. Since Hounslow had ceased by the 1660s, it does not seem that such practice would accede into the Harvey timeline, nor would the smiths of Hounslow have used the contrary figure of a noticeably tailed fox as used by the Harvey's. I have personally always felt that the fox used by the Harveys was perhaps a 'nod' to the Hounslow smiths in a rather commemorative sense, as the reputation certainly would remain known then. Thank you so much, as always, for the wonderful examples you continue to post here, and for keeping this thread going!! Fernando, excellent suggestion on the compellingly plausible interpretation of SOLIDEO GLORIA . Often the literal interpretation of words, terms and phrases can be rather difficult to understand properly in the mindset of our times, but such dimensional placement into the context and times of the weapon really makes a difference! |
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11th September 2015, 07:52 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
On analysis Hounslo or Hownsloe or Hownslow swords carried entirely different marks often based on the Me Fecit script and variations of it. I can find no proof of marks of Hounslow of any kind of Fox... Clearly then SH and H were two marks inside the Running Fox outline of the Harveys and also Harvey and apparently a HAR and a VEY under...as a block inscription with no fox at all. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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12th September 2015, 04:38 PM
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#14 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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I have found a most interesting note on http://www.mocavo.co.uk/The-Victoria...2-3/704590/320 which may have escaped scrutiny... This old volume places many things in perspective...
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16th September 2015, 01:59 PM
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#15 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,193
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Ibrahiim,
Thank you so much for always adding these interesting and astute observations and especially these remarkably pertinent links! These additions perfectly illustrate that researching these weapons and the intriguing elements of their unique histories often involves forays into most unexpected and obscure sources. These are the kinds of details which truly add to the dimension of our understanding and appreciation of these arms! Best regards, Jim |
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