Basket hilted swords

[Iain]

The sword with three fullers is more or less identical to the crescents found on blades common to African broadswords, kaskara and takouba. This version of the mark is typically later (19th century) than the more well formed crescent faces as seen in the sword on the left. A few examples attached.

So I am quite interested what comes out of this topic. Following with interest...

[Will M]

ElJay pm sent.

[Cathey]

Hi Iain

You are quite correct about the similarly as many Kaskara’s often have earlier European blades including those featuring the double moons. A number of those you have featured are probably German circa 1700 looking at the quality. The feel and sping of the metal will generally give you an indication of whether this is a locally forged blade or a European addition.

The sword attached hear and referred to in my previous post traditionally has this exact blade with this hilt as featured in NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s. Actually I am yet to see an example of this particular pattern which is quite distinctive with any other blade; however I have seen this exact blade on a number of other basket hilts of the same period.

Sword details
BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745
Nationality Irish – British Cavalry
Overall Length 107 cm (42.1 inches)
Blade length 90 cm (35.4 inches)
Blade widest point 4.8 cm (1 7/8 inches)
Marks, etc back to back crescent moons

BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745 this variation often called the “Irish Hilt” because of use by some British Regiments in the Irish Establishment in particular the 6th Inniskilling. It has a three-quarter basket hilt comprised of broad vertical bars joined by a middle horizontal strap. Broadsword, early double-edged blade bears two central fullers & crescent engraving.

General Remarks
The 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards were raised in 1689 to fight for King William III. The Regiment left Ireland in 1708 and did not return for 100 years fighting in the 1715 rebellion in Scotland were in Flanders and fought at Fontenoy in 1745, later at Waterloo in 1815 and Balaclava in the Crimea in 1854.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 284
GARDNER, R. E. Small Arms makers Pp 368
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS pp66 nm
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp229 Fig VIII4
NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s
Wallis & Wallis Sale No 473 5-6/5/04 Plate 5 lot 1341 Pp51


Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Iain

You are quite correct about the similarly as many Kaskara’s often have earlier European blades including those featuring the double moons. A number of those you have featured are probably German circa 1700 looking at the quality. The feel and sping of the metal will generally give you an indication of whether this is a locally forged blade or a European addition.

The sword attached hear and referred to in my previous post traditionally has this exact blade with this hilt as featured in NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s. Actually I am yet to see an example of this particular pattern which is quite distinctive with any other blade; however I have seen this exact blade on a number of other basket hilts of the same period.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

Thanks for the additional references. All very correct, a couple of the blades I showed are 18th century. The puzzle for collectors like myself on the ethnographic side has always been tracking down the crescents applied in Europe and associated makers as opposed to the habit of African smiths applying similar stamps after the fact so to speak.

I have to admit the form of the crescents show in this pattern I have more or less considered non-European due to the differences with the more elaborate crescents often seen. But I am quite happy to be shown to be wrong! I have always considered that quite a few of these blades turning up in basket hilts were 20th century combinations taken from kaskara/takouba (I am not trying to insinuate yours is).

So once again, thanks for the references!

[E.B. Erickson]

Regarding the African blade connection, I too have always assumed that these were later blades mounted in old hilts. However, last week Czerny's had an auction, which I viewed last night, and so I attach photos of lot 186. It's basically a twin to Cathey's, and I am now asking myself, is it reasonable to think that a collector or dealer in times past started a production line of this type of sword (Cathey's and the Czerny's examples aren't the only ones I've seen over the years)? I am starting to think that a more reasonable answer is that these are not composite swords, but were made this way for a cavalry regiment back in the 1700s.

Sorry about the fuzzy shot of the moon marks; I started from a tiny little thumbnail photo!

--ElJay

[E.B. Erickson]

More baskets of an English origin.

Grenadiers (?) half basket, 1750 (?)
30" curved se blade with single narrow back fuller.
This sword, although fairly pitted, is all original and does not appear to have ever been taken apart. The grip wire and wrap are long gone, but the ferrules remain. In spite of the pitting, there are traces of S HARVEY stamped on the flat of the blade.

[E.B. Erickson]

Another probable Grenadier's hanger, ca. 1750.
27" se blade, with single narrow back fuller, stamped with the running fox and SH as used by the Harvey swordmakers.
Grip is sharkskin wrapped with brass wire; ferrules are brass as well.
The guard base is an open heart, and this sword retains what appears to be it's original heavy leather liner.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Regarding the African blade connection, I too have always assumed that these were later blades mounted in old hilts. However, last week Czerny's had an auction, which I viewed last night, and so I attach photos of lot 186. It's basically a twin to Cathey's, and I am now asking myself, is it reasonable to think that a collector or dealer in times past started a production line of this type of sword (Cathey's and the Czerny's examples aren't the only ones I've seen over the years)? I am starting to think that a more reasonable answer is that these are not composite swords, but were made this way for a cavalry regiment back in the 1700s.

Sorry about the fuzzy shot of the moon marks; I started from a tiny little thumbnail photo!

--ElJay

I hope nobody feels I've derailed this thread by bringing up the African aspect.

Here's a couple larger images of the Czerny sword. It really does seem a twin.

[Will M]

I was quite leery of this one at Czerny's, the grip has no covering and is wood with red/brown and black as is the finish on the remainder of the sword.
Only recent rust is red/brown and it's not rust.
It very much looks like red primer with black paint applied and since then worn down.
I may be mistaken but I have never seen this colouring on a sword.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Iain

You are quite correct about the similarly as many Kaskara’s often have earlier European blades including those featuring the double moons. A number of those you have featured are probably German circa 1700 looking at the quality. The feel and sping of the metal will generally give you an indication of whether this is a locally forged blade or a European addition.

The sword attached hear and referred to in my previous post traditionally has this exact blade with this hilt as featured in NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s. Actually I am yet to see an example of this particular pattern which is quite distinctive with any other blade; however I have seen this exact blade on a number of other basket hilts of the same period.

Sword details
BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745
Nationality Irish – British Cavalry
Overall Length 107 cm (42.1 inches)
Blade length 90 cm (35.4 inches)
Blade widest point 4.8 cm (1 7/8 inches)
Marks, etc back to back crescent moons

BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745 this variation often called the “Irish Hilt” because of use by some British Regiments in the Irish Establishment in particular the 6th Inniskilling. It has a three-quarter basket hilt comprised of broad vertical bars joined by a middle horizontal strap. Broadsword, early double-edged blade bears two central fullers & crescent engraving.

General Remarks
The 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards were raised in 1689 to fight for King William III. The Regiment left Ireland in 1708 and did not return for 100 years fighting in the 1715 rebellion in Scotland were in Flanders and fought at Fontenoy in 1745, later at Waterloo in 1815 and Balaclava in the Crimea in 1854.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 284
GARDNER, R. E. Small Arms makers Pp 368
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS pp66 nm
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp229 Fig VIII4
NEWMAN, G.G. Swords and Blades of the American Revolution pp150, plate 265.s
Wallis & Wallis Sale No 473 5-6/5/04 Plate 5 lot 1341 Pp51


Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Excellent detail. The 'Anglo-Irish' hilt in post #36, c.1745 is virtually identical to the one posted in "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" by Anthony Darling (Vol. 7, #3, pp.79-96, 1974) in fig.7abc (p.86). Here the author notes that this style hilt was indeed associated with the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons noting the period as c.1740.
While the term 'Irish hilt' was often used collectively to describe 'Highland' basket hilts (Darling, ibid. p.84; Blair, 1962,p.86) these particular hilts, though distinctly British.....were termed Anglo-Irish for the connection to these Irish dragoon units.

In the example seen in Darling, the blade is 34", double edged and has one central fuller.
The Neumann example (265.S) is again identical hilt, but with two central fullers, and a note that a crescent engraving was present, but not otherwise specified.

In all the references I have seen on Scottish basket hilts, which includes most of those listed in these posts, the only triple fuller configurations have flutes on either side at the forte..much as seen with the c.1600 example with paired moons presumed Stamm Clemens.
While Stamm according to Gyngell (p.41) and Lenciewicz (p.66) show him using crescent moons, they were presumably among other marks and these were typically at the forte in those times.

As Iain has noted in post #38, the blade on the 'Irish' hilt dragoon c.1745 as well as images of the Czerny's example, are compellingly like blades used on kaskara (as well as takouba) in Africa from mid to latter 19th century. In actuality, the degenerated and stylized nature of the moons compares to many of these blades often termed 'masri' and the moons termed 'dukari'. These blades were indeed often German imports in the latter years of the 19th century, though may have come in earlier. Native armourers began making their own blades with this fuller configuration and the marks were strategically placed near the fuller terminals and believed to have magical connotation.

The example with the more artistically applied paired moons (believed Stamm) is exactly the kind of evidence long sought to find the ancestry of these crescent moons used in North Africa.
However what is puzzling on the other example (1745 Irish dragoon) and its counterpart noted as Czerny's item, is why would 19th century blades be present in hilts used in the 1740s?

While the point that it is true that Scottish, and for that matter many British swords, may be considered 'composite' as they are comprised of local hilts and imported blades....it is typically preferred that these pairings are within the working life of the components .
Since these dragoon hilts as far as known ceased use in the 18th century, the use of blades much later mounted in them is puzzling.
Obviously the question stands as , are these indeed German blades of the 18th century rather than kaskara 'masri' blades of late 19th c.?
If these are actually early German blades, then it is a powerful revelation in many years of research on these North African blades, and it would be amazing to prove that blades with these triple fullers and these corrupted moons were produced that early.

Dr L.C. Briggs wrote his venerable treatise on sword blades in North Africa in 1965 (JAAS, Vol. V, #2 pp.37-92) where he notes on p43, "...I have seen no Taureg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European".

Sir Francis Rodd (1928) in "People of the Veil", p.233, "..the masri blades are made in the north. Most prized are those with two or three slight cancellations down the middle. The commonest masri blades bear two opposed crescent men in moon crescent marks".

[Will M]

Thanks Cathey, digital photos can change colour and tone from one to the next.
It can give false impressions.
I see one Australian dealer bought a few from that auction in Sidney.
I would not think there would be room for much if any profit but swords seem to be a strong investment now.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While the point that it is true that Scottish, and for that matter many British swords, may be considered 'composite' as they are comprised of local hilts and imported blades....it is typically preferred that these pairings are within the working life of the components .
Since these dragoon hilts as far as known ceased use in the 18th century, the use of blades much later mounted in them is puzzling.
Obviously the question stands as , are these indeed German blades of the 18th century rather than kaskara 'masri' blades of late 19th c.?
If these are actually early German blades, then it is a powerful revelation in many years of research on these North African blades, and it would be amazing to prove that blades with these triple fullers and these corrupted moons were produced that early.

Dr L.C. Briggs wrote his venerable treatise on sword blades in North Africa in 1965 (JAAS, Vol. V, #2 pp.37-92) where he notes on p43, "...I have seen no Taureg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European".

Sir Francis Rodd (1928) in "People of the Veil", p.233, "..the masri blades are made in the north. Most prized are those with two or three slight cancellations down the middle. The commonest masri blades bear two opposed crescent men in moon crescent marks".

Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting...

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting...

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

Thanks very much on the clarification Iain, and you're right, many of these triple fullered blades certainly could be attributed to the 18th century. As you recall it seems that these days, most of these kinds of blades found in North African settings are typically of 19th century. It is hard to say exactly what period of 19th century as blades were constantly recycled and used for often countless generations as well as intratribally traded.

My point was directed toward the dukari type moons of the masri blades, which as Briggs notes, were a phenomenon restricted to North African context. While many of these blades arrived in Africa from Germany entirely unmarked, at some point the native armourers added these talismanically significant paired moons probably to those blades as well as the copies of them produced locally.

The paired moons of the dukari began in context as well recognizable versions of the astral themes often seen on European blades. The moon was particularly key to tribal folk religion and probably adapted readily to their 'magical' perceptions, and duality is another often applied allegorical instance.
We know that swords, particularly in the case of the Sudan, were not necessarily widely used tribally until the Mahdist period. Until then most tribes used spears or makeshift weapons, as evidenced in these campigns in their outset. In time, the moons applied to blades (actually these occur more commonly on Tuareg blades which are typically smaller), became remarkably degenerated . They became less recognizable and almost geometric stylizations, as seen on the blades of our discussion on the 1745 Anglo-Irish hilt.

The question is..why would a German blade, even of that mid 18th century vintage, end up with markings of a type distinct to 19th century North Africa? and appear in a hilt form that ceased use by the 1780s by British cavalry units, and the terminus ante quem of these moons is 19th century with these in form likely the latter part.

All the best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I just want to put this to bed and get the thread back to its intended subject Basket Hilts not African blades.

Let me be clear, my sword has a German blade circa 1700, this has been confirmed by the Baron of Earshall who is the world’s foremost authority on basket hilted swords. I have seen at least seven identical examples and to even suggest someone ran around the world switching the blades over for 19th century African blade makes no sense at all. By the way one of these swords is a hand and a half in the Tower of London collection.

Variations of the crescent moon have featured on European blades dating back to the sixteen hundreds, if you want to know more go to:
SOCKEL Johan F HAANDSKYDEVAABENS BEDOMMELSE Volumes 1& 2 International Encyclopedia of the Firearms Manufacturers and Marks from 1400-1900
GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS

If those of you interested in African blades wish to continue your debate, please start your own thread, I beg you. I have been trying draw out those interested in Basket hilts for a long time and fear this attempt will also fail if we don’t get back on topic.

This being said I am now posting another basket in the hopes that we can get back on topic and encourage other basket hilt enthusiast to contribute.

Cheers Cathey and Rex