Basket hilted swords

fernando · 11th January 2017, 12:00 PM

Beautiful sword, in excelent condition and with a well researched background

.

Cathey · 14th January 2017, 05:47 AM

Hi Guys’

This sword has been in our collection for many years and we have never come across the blade mark before. Any assistance regarding this odd mark will be most appreciated. I have found some marks that are vaguely similar but they date from 1380 onwards. The references for these are:

GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS pp25
KINMAN, Steffan European Makers of Edged Weapons, their Marks A Handbook for Museums and Collectors pp23
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS pp80, 88, 94,

Nationality Scottish
Overall Length 96 cm (37.8 inches)
Blade length 83.2 cm (32.8 inches)
Blade widest point 3.3 cm (1.3 inches)
Hilt widest point 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¾” 9.5 cm
Marks, etc. Deep blade mark stamped just below hilt.

Description
BASKET-HILT Scottish Circa 1615 Cavalry Broad Sword. Blade is pitted and has dark patina, possibly predates hilt. ‘S’ type basket. The same style of basket is featured in the September 1994 “Scottish Sword & Shield“ catalogue on page 12 no. 25 described as “Scottish basket hilted sword of the Saltire Group. S type basket Circa 1610 – 1625.”

This sword has more neatly formed frontal saltire bars and the mid-point notches on the vertical sides of the junction plates are more U Shaped than those seen on other examples, but the pommel is cone shaped with grooving and fluting at the front and the rear but not, apparently at the sides. The lobes at the centre of the lateral linking bars are extremely long. Interestingly, the extended horizontal S bars are welded at the very top of the aperture formed by the rear and front vertical bar; the upper curve of the S bar nestling between the juncture of the rear vertical bar and where it joins the shoulder linking it with the forward vertical bar.

The grip is a replacement 18th century one with plain iron collars at top and bottom. The double edged blade has single central groove stamped at the top with curious mark resembling a fleur-de-lys lacking its central stem. An additional curiosity is the arrangement of how the linking bars and lower rear arms of the saltires are welded behind the forward vertical bar instead of being merged directly into it.

Regards Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 26th January 2017, 12:21 AM

Hi Guys

Another pattern 1828 Scottish Basket

Date: Pattern 1828 (19th Century)
Overall Length: In Scabbard 104 cm, (40.9 inches) Sword only 99cm (39 inches)
Blade length: 82.7 cm (34.3 inches)
Blade widest point: 2.9 cm (1.1 inches
Hilt widest point: 14.9 cm (5.9 inches)
Inside grip length: 11.6 cm (4.6 inches)

Maker is S MAYNARD & HARRIS LEEADENHALL ST LONDON, Army and Navy Agents which are listed as Maynard and Harris 1851-1862

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-Pattern 1828-Highland Officer-Black Watch
Victorian officers regimental broadsword attributed to Harry Richard Stanhope Foley, as the ricasso has been engraved H.R.S.F over the original makers details, the blade is etched on one side with a crowned VR cipher and a Prince of Wales feather with By Appointment and on the other with the battle honours of the 42nd to Sevastopol, the hilt with a regulation steel basket retaining the original red faced leather liner, and with the field service scabbard, this has wear to the top leather.

Harry Richard Stanhope Foley
4/6/1864 joined the 42nd (the Royal Highland) Regt of Foot (the Black Watch).
14/6/1864 Appointed Ensign
9/11/1866 Appointed Lieutenant
9/11/1866 THE LONDON GAZETTE, NOVEMBER 9, 1866. 42nd Foot, Ensign Harry Richard Stanhope Foley to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice John Allatt Drake, who retires. Dated 9th November, 1866.
17/3/1869 Retired from the Black Watch.
2/4/1869 Joined the West Kent Light Infantry as Captain.

Not a terribly interesting chap, but a nice sword and we have recently acquired a photo of him, although sadly not in Uniform.

Cheer Cathey and Rex

fernando · 26th January 2017, 02:51 PM

Very nice sword, Cathey,
Its owner might not be an interesting chap but, the 42nd Black Watch certainly was.
They played an important role in the Peninsular War, as etched in your sword blade. Eventually one of the battles in which they were part of the allied forces (Buçaco) is a place hardly 100 miles from my home town.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2017, 05:13 PM

The 42nd Highland Regt of Foot ("Black Watch") is definitely a most distinguished and well known unit of the famed 'Highlanders' of the British military.
There is considerable debate about the origin of the name of this regiment, typically presuming it had to do with the dark tartan they are said to have worn. Actually it derives from a colloquial expression from the time the ancestral unit was formed, in the turbulent climate of the Scottish Highlands post '15' (the Scottish rebellion of 1715).
In 1725, George II authorized units of Highlanders from various clans loyal to the crown to patrol ("watch") areas of the Highlands for potential troubles and further organizing of insurgence.

These units were termed 'Am Freiceadan Dubh', (= the dark, or 'black' watch) much as in modern terms we refer to covert activity in the intelligence communities as 'black ops'.
The well known knife traditionally hidden in the sock of kilted clansmen is the skean dubh ( = hidden, dark, or 'black' knife, dubh meaning dark or black).

In 1740, more units were added and formed into an official military infantry regiment which became the famed 42nd .

This regiment, which fought with distinction and valor through many campaigns, including as Fernando noted at Bucaco in 1810 during the Peninsular campaigns, is also well known from one of the most famed paintings of the Napoleonic Wars.
Lady Butler painted her rendition of the immortal charge of the Royal Scots Greys cavalry at Waterloo, titled 'Scotland Forever'.

In this fabulous painting, she portrays the spirited charging of these horsemen in this charge in which Highlanders (the 42nd) were said to have tried to go into the breach with them by grabbing their stirrups. This was more of course an elaborate exaggeration, but in fact the cavalry did break through the ranks of the Highlanders in moving toward the French, but the Highlanders cheered them through, and in that spirit, Lady Butler simply portrayed them very much wanting to 'go with them'.

I recall in 1983, I went to a performance of the Black Watch bagpipe band . It was exciting and fabulous, and there are no words to describe the emotion as they dedicated their music and a standing crowd to the Marines who died in the barracks bombing in Lebanon the week before.

From the early days of these Highlander regiments, the bagpipes always accompanied them, and before battle, the pipes stirred the troops, much as what I witnessed that day in 1983.

kronckew · 26th January 2017, 07:22 PM

bit more contemporary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2gDkcpYnMc

a slightly better version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LPu8Jzjxg

we even have our own tartan

(i'm prejudiced. they are somewhat better fed - and a tad older

)

Cathey · 22nd February 2017, 11:07 AM

Hi Guys

Not all basket hilts are actually Scottish, but how can you tell if its a Scottish Basket Hilt or a British Basket Hilt. Even the Baron of Earlshall in Volume 1 of his new book is cautious about a definitive answer as such and whilst his book is titled "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword" it contains just as many British Basket hilts. Just to add to our confusion it may be British in manufacture but used by a Scottish Regiment and of course the Scott's where not renowned for blade making so a British manufactured blade on a Scottish Basket is not unusual either.

Whilst their will always be anomalies, two principle indicators are worth considering. 1st the pommel shape, many British military swords have what "Mazansky" refers to as a bun pommel. Scottish swords, more often than not have a more conical shaped pommel often with incised decoration. The second indicator can be found on the underside of the guard. In most British basket hilts the tang fits neatly into the sword slot, whilst in Scottish examples there is often a longer recess that may even be wider than the actual blade, thus comfortably seating the blade as such.

I have probably explained this rather badly so I have attached some pictures that I hope will better convey what to look for. The Baron does say in his book that whilst some Scottish swords do not have this extended sword recess, he has never seen the feature on a British example. So whilst we still can't be sure a basket is Scottish, if it has the extended recess under the guard we can be reasonably confident that it isn't British.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

14th January 2017, 05:47 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	BASKET-HILT c1615 – 1625 –Help with blade mark Hi Guys’ This sword has been in our collection for many years and we have never come across the blade mark before. Any assistance regarding this odd mark will be most appreciated. I have found some marks that are vaguely similar but they date from 1380 onwards. The references for these are: GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS pp25 KINMAN, Steffan European Makers of Edged Weapons, their Marks A Handbook for Museums and Collectors pp23 LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS pp80, 88, 94, Nationality Scottish Overall Length 96 cm (37.8 inches) Blade length 83.2 cm (32.8 inches) Blade widest point 3.3 cm (1.3 inches) Hilt widest point 5” 12.7 cm Inside grip length 3 ¾” 9.5 cm Marks, etc. Deep blade mark stamped just below hilt. Description BASKET-HILT Scottish Circa 1615 Cavalry Broad Sword. Blade is pitted and has dark patina, possibly predates hilt. ‘S’ type basket. The same style of basket is featured in the September 1994 “Scottish Sword & Shield“ catalogue on page 12 no. 25 described as “Scottish basket hilted sword of the Saltire Group. S type basket Circa 1610 – 1625.” This sword has more neatly formed frontal saltire bars and the mid-point notches on the vertical sides of the junction plates are more U Shaped than those seen on other examples, but the pommel is cone shaped with grooving and fluting at the front and the rear but not, apparently at the sides. The lobes at the centre of the lateral linking bars are extremely long. Interestingly, the extended horizontal S bars are welded at the very top of the aperture formed by the rear and front vertical bar; the upper curve of the S bar nestling between the juncture of the rear vertical bar and where it joins the shoulder linking it with the forward vertical bar. The grip is a replacement 18th century one with plain iron collars at top and bottom. The double edged blade has single central groove stamped at the top with curious mark resembling a fleur-de-lys lacking its central stem. An additional curiosity is the arrangement of how the linking bars and lower rear arms of the saltires are welded behind the forward vertical bar instead of being merged directly into it. Regards Cathey and Rex Attached Images

26th January 2017, 12:21 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Basket Hilt Pattern 1828 Black Watch Hi Guys Another pattern 1828 Scottish Basket Date: Pattern 1828 (19th Century) Overall Length: In Scabbard 104 cm, (40.9 inches) Sword only 99cm (39 inches) Blade length: 82.7 cm (34.3 inches) Blade widest point: 2.9 cm (1.1 inches Hilt widest point: 14.9 cm (5.9 inches) Inside grip length: 11.6 cm (4.6 inches) Maker is S MAYNARD & HARRIS LEEADENHALL ST LONDON, Army and Navy Agents which are listed as Maynard and Harris 1851-1862 Description Basket Hilt-Scottish-Pattern 1828-Highland Officer-Black Watch Victorian officers regimental broadsword attributed to Harry Richard Stanhope Foley, as the ricasso has been engraved H.R.S.F over the original makers details, the blade is etched on one side with a crowned VR cipher and a Prince of Wales feather with By Appointment and on the other with the battle honours of the 42nd to Sevastopol, the hilt with a regulation steel basket retaining the original red faced leather liner, and with the field service scabbard, this has wear to the top leather. Harry Richard Stanhope Foley 4/6/1864 joined the 42nd (the Royal Highland) Regt of Foot (the Black Watch). 14/6/1864 Appointed Ensign 9/11/1866 Appointed Lieutenant 9/11/1866 THE LONDON GAZETTE, NOVEMBER 9, 1866. 42nd Foot, Ensign Harry Richard Stanhope Foley to be Lieutenant, by purchase, vice John Allatt Drake, who retires. Dated 9th November, 1866. 17/3/1869 Retired from the Black Watch. 2/4/1869 Joined the West Kent Light Infantry as Captain. Not a terribly interesting chap, but a nice sword and we have recently acquired a photo of him, although sadly not in Uniform. Cheer Cathey and Rex Attached Images

22nd February 2017, 11:07 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish or British? Hi Guys Not all basket hilts are actually Scottish, but how can you tell if its a Scottish Basket Hilt or a British Basket Hilt. Even the Baron of Earlshall in Volume 1 of his new book is cautious about a definitive answer as such and whilst his book is titled "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword" it contains just as many British Basket hilts. Just to add to our confusion it may be British in manufacture but used by a Scottish Regiment and of course the Scott's where not renowned for blade making so a British manufactured blade on a Scottish Basket is not unusual either. Whilst their will always be anomalies, two principle indicators are worth considering. 1st the pommel shape, many British military swords have what "Mazansky" refers to as a bun pommel. Scottish swords, more often than not have a more conical shaped pommel often with incised decoration. The second indicator can be found on the underside of the guard. In most British basket hilts the tang fits neatly into the sword slot, whilst in Scottish examples there is often a longer recess that may even be wider than the actual blade, thus comfortably seating the blade as such. I have probably explained this rather badly so I have attached some pictures that I hope will better convey what to look for. The Baron does say in his book that whilst some Scottish swords do not have this extended sword recess, he has never seen the feature on a British example. So whilst we still can't be sure a basket is Scottish, if it has the extended recess under the guard we can be reasonably confident that it isn't British. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

11th January 2017, 12:00 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beautiful sword, in excelent condition and with a well researched background .

26th January 2017, 02:51 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very nice sword, Cathey, Its owner might not be an interesting chap but, the 42nd Black Watch certainly was. They played an important role in the Peninsular War, as etched in your sword blade. Eventually one of the battles in which they were part of the allied forces (Buçaco) is a place hardly 100 miles from my home town.

26th January 2017, 05:13 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	The 42nd Highland Regt of Foot ("Black Watch") is definitely a most distinguished and well known unit of the famed 'Highlanders' of the British military. There is considerable debate about the origin of the name of this regiment, typically presuming it had to do with the dark tartan they are said to have worn. Actually it derives from a colloquial expression from the time the ancestral unit was formed, in the turbulent climate of the Scottish Highlands post '15' (the Scottish rebellion of 1715). In 1725, George II authorized units of Highlanders from various clans loyal to the crown to patrol ("watch") areas of the Highlands for potential troubles and further organizing of insurgence. These units were termed 'Am Freiceadan Dubh', (= the dark, or 'black' watch) much as in modern terms we refer to covert activity in the intelligence communities as 'black ops'. The well known knife traditionally hidden in the sock of kilted clansmen is the skean dubh ( = hidden, dark, or 'black' knife, dubh meaning dark or black). In 1740, more units were added and formed into an official military infantry regiment which became the famed 42nd . This regiment, which fought with distinction and valor through many campaigns, including as Fernando noted at Bucaco in 1810 during the Peninsular campaigns, is also well known from one of the most famed paintings of the Napoleonic Wars. Lady Butler painted her rendition of the immortal charge of the Royal Scots Greys cavalry at Waterloo, titled 'Scotland Forever'. In this fabulous painting, she portrays the spirited charging of these horsemen in this charge in which Highlanders (the 42nd) were said to have tried to go into the breach with them by grabbing their stirrups. This was more of course an elaborate exaggeration, but in fact the cavalry did break through the ranks of the Highlanders in moving toward the French, but the Highlanders cheered them through, and in that spirit, Lady Butler simply portrayed them very much wanting to 'go with them'. I recall in 1983, I went to a performance of the Black Watch bagpipe band . It was exciting and fabulous, and there are no words to describe the emotion as they dedicated their music and a standing crowd to the Marines who died in the barracks bombing in Lebanon the week before. From the early days of these Highlander regiments, the bagpipes always accompanied them, and before battle, the pipes stirred the troops, much as what I witnessed that day in 1983.

26th January 2017, 07:22 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	bit more contemporary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2gDkcpYnMc a slightly better version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LPu8Jzjxg we even have our own tartan (i'm prejudiced. they are somewhat better fed - and a tad older )