Pata sword with European blade

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Jim and thank you for your very interesting comment!

I guess that in the end, we will end up with an open-ended conclusion as it would be probably impossible to establish certainly how many Pata swords had European and how many had Indian blades.

What is certain is they had both types of blades, and they evolved over time. It is quite possible that the earlier Patas had more rigid imported blades but then they evolved and so did the fighting style towards more flexible ones. If you are looking at the modern day Patas, they have a blade that is so flexible that it has become completely ineffective for a real battle, as it cannot deliver neither a thrusting nor a slashing blow strong enough to incapacitate an opponent.

However, I don't think that is really that important to reach a clear cut conclusion, as such a conclusion will carry little if any practical value.

I think the process by which we are trying to reach a conclusion is much more important than the conclusion itself, as this process helps us learn and understand more about this subject.

PS: Now, while I still think that Jens' blade and mine are Indian, I believe that Kubur's blade is European, but has been decorated with some North Indian symbols.

Well noted Marius, and thank you.
It seems I recall a very sage comment once read, which said something to the effect, 'the thing I love most about history...is how it's always changing!!!'.
Naturally we cannot paint these kinds of topics with too broad a brush, as there are so many variables and distortions in narratives, records and other forms of evidence.

In Oman, the straight blade sword commonly known as the 'kattara' which has an open cylindrical hilt, developed in that form in the early 19th century, possibly earlier, has become a sword used ceremonially in exhibitions of martial prowess and celebration known as the Funun.
While these spectacular events show amazing skill and dexterity, it is important to note that blades which are deliberately thin and adapted to showcase the movements are used.
These particular versions of these swords mounted with unusually flexible blades for this purpose have in recent years become interpolated with other versions of the same style hilts, which were in earlier times mounted with genuine European blades and worn as status symbols by merchants and figures of key standing.

I know that in Kerala and in Southern India there are martial performances using certain traditional Indian weapons in similar circumstance, and often I have wondered just how connected these kinds of displays are to each other. Even Burton (1885) noted such performances using various weapons in Arab context and others, but as a fencing master of the sword, groused over such performances.

It does seem that one sword used in India in such performances of swordsmanship skill is the pata, and they are used in pairs, creating a spectacular windmill type effect.

I am not saying this is the case with any of the swords we are discussing, but offering the possibility of some explanation for extremely flexible blades which were probably more for effect than combat.

[fernando]

Obviously the blades of those patas Marcus linked to youtube are meant for show business; you would not call them flexible but undulating … or floppy … or whips, a great challenge for cutting apples and lemons, good for tribal rituals but unreal for battle. Certainly the sense of flexible as opposing to stiff was something that period warriors were certainly used to deal with. When we hear that the use of patas required intense training, we may assume that one of the purposes was to prevent users from muscular stress. In paging Elgood’s HINDU ARMS AND RITUAL we see a pata in page 97, quoted as (quote) arguably the earliest example known, in which the (Indian) blade has a pronounced central rib reaching to the point and obviously intended to stiffen the blade.
Certainly patas were not invented to deliberately use import blades but these surely played a substantial role. Obviously Rainer Daehnhardt opinion is worth what is worth (as i cared to mention) but evidence is strong enough to assume that European blades having been largely mounted in patas is not only an association of ideas built from such blades abounding in katars, pulwars and talwars.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I know that in Kerala and in Southern India there are martial performances using certain traditional Indian weapons in similar circumstance, and often I have wondered just how connected these kinds of displays are to each other. Even Burton (1885) noted such performances using various weapons in Arab context and others, but as a fencing master of the sword, groused over such performances.

It does seem that one sword used in India in such performances of swordsmanship skill is the pata, and they are used in pairs, creating a spectacular windmill type effect.

Exactly! One of the links provided in a previous mail is to a video of such a performance. However the Patas used there are so flexible that they are completely useless in a real combat.

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly, and as I noted, the Omani performances called Funun, are actually based on many such tribal rituals before battle, where warriors brandished their swords and built up adrenalin and energy to build up their stamina for combat. This is not confined just to Arabs, Omanis, Baluch and others but seems almost a standard activity in warfare as such preparations are made to face the enemy.

Obviously, as swords became secondary weapons, it is well known that their traditions have remained firmly in place, and there are many 'sword dances' and performances which transcend cultures.

In the Omani Funun, one of the key elements of the performance, is the brandishing and quivering of the blade to produce a resounding whir with many simultaneous blades, and the flash of shining metal.

It is not surprising that such activities with swords, derived from training and practice exercises evolved into startling performances.

In the Elgood reference, it is noted that this katar has a stiffened central rib which clearly would suggest thrust or stab. This of course is keenly the case with this example proposing it as the earliest known example (c 1570).
While this use of the katar may have existed in this time (the deeper origins of the katar form itself may date centuries earlier) it does seem by the time it evolved into even longer versions (up to the pata) it became more a slashing weapon. I believe I earlier mentioned that large numbers of European blades were coming into India by 17th and many were cut down for katars.
The extremely limiting condition of the transversely held grip of the katar and enclosed pata did not lend well to combative action in established swordsmanship techniques, but in the sweeping slashing motions could be quite deadly.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, do not forget to mention that a lot, if not all, of the troops were drugged before figthing.
Few mention it, but some does, and it was no different than with the Vikings and a lot of other fighting nations - but it is not so well know.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...In the Elgood reference, it is noted that this katar has a stiffened central rib which clearly would suggest thrust or stab. This of course is keenly the case with this example proposing it as the earliest known example (c 1570).
While this use of the katar may have existed in this time (the deeper origins of the katar form itself may date centuries earlier) ...

The example in fig. 8.58 would be a Pata Jim, not a Katar (Met Museum, 36.25.1534); reason why i thought this was worthy of note.
I wonder on what basis did Elgood quote this example as 'arguably' been the earliest pata known but, for the case, if fits well in Rainer Daehnhardt's assumption (presumption ?) that the earliest known example is in his collection, and should date from the first quarter XVI century; a battle specimen naked of all luxury, with a gauntlet of turned/carved wood, reinforced with iron straps ... again with an European blade, probably from a navigator's sword, from the transiction XV-XVI centuries.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

The example in fig. 8.58 would be a Pata Jim, not a Katar (Met Museum, 36.25.1534); reason why i thought this was worthy of note.
I wonder on what basis did Elgood quote this example as 'arguably' been the earliest pata known but, for the case, if fits well in Rainer Daehnhardt's assumption (presumption ?) that the earliest known example is in his collection, and should date from the first quarter XVI century; a battle specimen naked of all luxury, with a gauntlet of turned/carved wood, reinforced with iron straps ... again with an European blade, probably from a navigator's sword, from the transiction XV-XVI centuries.


.

Thank you Fernando for adding this! With Mr. Daehnhardt's knowledge and acumen with arms esoterica, it is fascinating to know of this example. At the early date of this blade it does seem to compellingly be presumed a Portuguese blade. While some degree of European blades apparently were coming into India in this early period, the notable volume was more into the beginning of the 17th.
It does seem that the pata itself was primarily a 17th century innovation, and you are right, the image in Elgood 8.58 only shows the hilt and no mention is made of the blade length.
Obviously the hooded katars were already in place by the c. 1570 date placed on this example, and thus it may be a katar, but curious why the 'pata' term was noted.

I know that Jens' extensive research on the katar has projected start dates centuries earlier based on iconographic and other sources still being reviewed. These seem to center on Orissa, and I am wondering when and where the sword length (pata) began (17th century noted).
It is always confusing when we are trying to establish what is a long dagger vs. a short sword.
We know that early katars were using what is noted (Elgood p.245) as volumes of 'cut down' European blades in Vijayanagara and Tanjore in the 17th century, having begun with latter 16th blades.

It would seem as noted by Ariel, the Marathas (Mahratta apparently the archaic spelling used in most western narratives) in fact were likely the innovators of using the entire gauntlet weapon on full length blades . They were as I understand key in trade and maritime activity, thus the European blades were as noted, plentiful by the 17th well through18th .
The pata clearly transmitted into use by Rajputs, as well established, but to lesser degree with Mughals and Sikhs.

With the renowned use of the pata by the Marathas and of course their leader Shivaji, the use as a cavalry weapon is we established. The descriptions of them as a military force of course will vary. It seems that such views were filtered through English narratives often from Rajput perspective, thus probably somewhat biased. In any case, they were it seems a quite formidable force and as noted by Fernando, quite successful in their campaigns.

Clearly the 'gauntlet' emplacement onto a blade must have simply been an innovation of the amalgamation of the vambrace (bazu band) on the forearm with a blade in combined function. In past research on the evolution of a transverse grip weapon, there have been considerations on the concept of that manner in holding the buckler or shield where the boss incorporated a spike or blade, effectively becoming a stabbing arm with opportunity .

Attached are the images of Shivaji and page from Stone (1934).

[ariel]

Actually, it is well recorded that Shivaji was of a very short stature.
His depiction as a giant on a giant horse, surrounded by dwarfish companions, might serve as an illustration of a "napoleonic complex" for a psychology class:-)))

[Jerseyman]

Hi Marius - I'd like to comment briefly on the tangential discussion regarding stiff versus flexible blades. I think I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Whether the blade is stiff or flexible you will still cut with the edge. If the blow is blocked then the contact presumably will be made with the edge. I'm not an engineer so don't have the terminology to describe this well I'm afraid, but the energy of the impact will be transmitted edge-to-edge through the blade - not flat to flat.

No matter how flexible a blade is, it is completely rigid in the edge-to-edge plane. So logically there should be little difference in the energy of the impact and its transmission into the attacker's arm, other than that caused by the blade being lighter.

Indeed, if the flexible blade had the effect you describe it would actually minimise the percussive power of the blow reducing its effect as a weapon.

If you were describing an angled deflection strike rather than a completely perpendicular one I could see some of what you're describing - but then you'd be minimising the effectiveness of the blow it seems to me as the blade would want to flex away from the target greatly reducing the power of the impact. Would that logically be a choice one would make?

Bear in mind also that the fixed grip on the forearm would dictate a different positional use of the body in creating the strikes - so the impact of a blocked blow would be absorbed in the body slightly differently, and I would suggest, more efficiently - less likely to create the potential damage you describe.

Having worked with flexible blades a couple of times I can tell you that the energetic rebound through the weapon is as strong as a stiff blade but transmits with what I can only describe as an odd 'wobble' effect which can momentarily adjust your balance more strongly than the impact of a stiff blade. Primarily because of the randomness of the effect, so it can't be completely planned for.

Another thought regarding flexibility - in my experience, very often the longer the blade the more flexible it appears (or perhaps is) as its own weight causes it to bend. Outside my field of knowledge, but perhaps there's a correlation between flexibility-length-poorer quality steel? Which might be pertinent to the local v. imported blade debate perhaps?

In all of this I am of course talking about period weaponry, not the modern items produced for demonstration/performance.

Hi Jim - maybe one might draw parallels in the sweeping slashing actions to the Germanic doppelhander fighting styles?

Happy to have any of my assertions proved wrong or point out if I've misunderstood anything - just my tuppence...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
Very well noted on the 'priming' of warriors before battle, and this seems always to have been the case where sometimes simply adrenalin is not enough, at least at the outset.

Jerseyman, thank you so much for your most interesting and well explained dynamics concerning these blades. It certainly adds perspective to the kind of circumstances which might have brought certain types of blades into favor over others, and the ultimate outcome in their use.

Indeed, the tandem use of two swords, daggers etc. does bring to mind the early fight studies of medieval Europe. It is always interesting to consider the aspects of cross cultural influences as the post exploration period led to colonization of so many continents.

In India, we know that the development of the Hindu basket hilt from the incorporation of the concept of developed hilts of Europe with the already established khanda certainly reflected a physical change in the weapon.
However it does not seem that the styles of swordsmanship changed to adopt European forms.
The longer 'firangi' blades became more of a status symbol and though these carried rapier blades, it does not seem sword to sword fencing became known to the Indians.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

Hi Marius - I'd like to comment briefly on the tangential discussion regarding stiff versus flexible blades. I think I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Whether the blade is stiff or flexible you will still cut with the edge. If the blow is blocked then the contact presumably will be made with the edge. I'm not an engineer so don't have the terminology to describe this well I'm afraid, but the energy of the impact will be transmitted edge-to-edge through the blade - not flat to flat.

No matter how flexible a blade is, it is completely rigid in the edge-to-edge plane. So logically there should be little difference in the energy of the impact and its transmission into the attacker's arm, other than that caused by the blade being lighter.

Indeed, if the flexible blade had the effect you describe it would actually minimise the percussive power of the blow reducing its effect as a weapon.

If you were describing an angled deflection strike rather than a completely perpendicular one I could see some of what you're describing - but then you'd be minimising the effectiveness of the blow it seems to me as the blade would want to flex away from the target greatly reducing the power of the impact. Would that logically be a choice one would make?

Thank you very much for your observation!

You are right that for a perfectly straight blow the impact forces will be transmitted through the width of the blade, but how many blows are PERFECTLY perpendicular to the target surface in a real battle?! Even the slightest minute inclination would generate a transverse force that will tend to bend the blade. And even for a perfectly straight blow, at the moment of the impact the wielding arm will continue movement and necessarily have to change the angle, and then the blade will bend allowing the arm to continue the movement.

Regarding the relationship between elasticity and length, there is none. Elasticity is an intrinsic property of the material and is independent of the size or shape of the object. However, deformation is dependent on size an shape. So a coin will not bend even if you apply a huge force, but a long stripe made of exactly the same material will bend easily with the lightest force.

[kronckew]

more opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7niTpIW7dEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1uo8Y1Mz2c

he discusses flexible blades used in the dancing demos and fruit cuttings. reminds me of shinese dao, the fighting ones have stiff thick blades and the ones used in wushu 'dancing' have very flexible ones, especially near the tips, because they make a cool sound as they wobble & thus enhance the dance.

i have examples of both & yes, if sharpened the wushu one will cut, but i'd rather have the thicker dao if i were in serious need.