Pata sword with European blade

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Thank you all for the reference! and the link!

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Why not, but the decoration is going right under the rivets and the pata.

[mariusgmioc]

My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design.

The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry.

While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount.

And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths.

I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo).

Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

[Jens Nordlunde]

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

I would retract my note earlier that these central fuller blades did not often appear on pata, as it would appear that they did, in the multitude of variations and possibilities with imported blades over such a long time.

The cross and orb mark is of course not a makers mark, but a device used in general motif of European blades, usually enclosing words or phrases etc. but later simply used singly on occasion in symbolic or quality sense.
On Jens' sword, it appears to terminate such an inscriptive panel now covered by the bolster. This corresponds to the period he describes and European.

While widely copied, usually by native artisans, the cross and orb was primarily German and N. European . It was used from 16th-18th c.

Kubur, good note from Staffan's excellent book!!!on the cross and orb, profusely used in many cases of wide range.
Also, excellent observation on p90 of Kinman, this Wirsberg blade has an inscribed panel which has what may be construed as such a floral device, however this 8 leaf example is what is often regarded as a 'paternoster' associated symbol in N. Europe (Netherlands) and on German blades for those markets. The 'crennelations' are compelling, and further suggestion of the kinds of motif from such blades being imitated by native artisans.

In Egerton (1884), numerous examples, mostly pata or other 'long' swords, (#57, 61,62,63) with the blades elaborated as 'very flexible' and European; elastic steel of European workmanship; and European with flexible steel.

Elgood (2004) describes on p,202
" Tory describes in 1612 how the India swords are very sharp but for want of skill in those that temper them, will break rather than bend . "
He notes the demand for European swords, and Shah Jehan preferring 'Alemaine' (German) blades, but these in the north was referring to shamshirs or sabres,

"...long 'FIRANGI' blades became a status symbol in the 17th c. and English swords which bow and become straight again sold at high prices. In the 1660s Thevenot remarks that the swords made by the Indians are very brittle and that good ones are brought from England'.

Here I would note that in a number of these cases, the blades described are notably curved and may refer to wootz shamshir blades, which if not properly produced with the key ore from sources in India containing the mineral impurities required for the nanostructure will indeed be brittle.
British impairment of the wootz industry in the 19th c. case in point.

The demand for imported blades seems quite well supported through the 16t through 19th century, and the 'English' provided blades were more often than not acquired by British merchants from Solingen sources and 'Alemain' not English.

[Jim McDougall]

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:
This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.
Thank you.

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

Salaams Jim , Your examples on sword and dagger are almost identical to the designs on the Patta. It occurred to me that both Indian and European blades were used in this weapon and either African / European trade blades or home grown African or straight forward export to India European blades could easily have been produced... In this case certainly carrying African motifs...for sure.
I note that these weapons could be deployed one in each hand and the flexibility was reasonable ~ I assume if used in a cyclic action the slash and cut potential of these blades would be substantial although one could be used in unison with an axe or other weapon and later a combination pistol and Patta was invented.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[mariusgmioc]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Marius.
I have been studying these weapons for far more years (decades) than I can really say, and still feel like a novice. I learn more each day, and it seems for every answer there are so many more questions.

Complex is a good word for this fascinating field of conundrums!
The only thing with reasonable consistency is hilts, which generally will hold in some degree to local regions or cultural spheres. Blades however, were transmitted far and wide as a trade commodity, and their movements could be interrupted or entirely rerouted in accord with the constant flux of geopolitical events, warfare, changes in trade agreements etc.

I know I have seen this four petal in square design in other cases in North African weapons, and so far only found notes suggesting the design as far as Tunisia and into Saharan regions. It is hard to say whether it corresponds to something European, but we know that various European marks were duplicated by native workers in Africa often in multiple or repeated forms and other configurations. The familiar 'dukari' (paired crescent moons) are examples of such variations of European marks.

As for these 'floral squares' being placed on an imported European blade in India, it is of course possible, but as far as I have seen, unlikely. As I have said though, that is only my thought at present and quite frankly I hope someone comes up with an example of these exact kind of squares on a European blade, or on another Indian blade, which will confirm otherwise.
For me it is never being right or wrong......just learning!

[fernando]

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

In which way do you mean?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In which way do you mean?

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by fernando

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

[Jens Nordlunde]

Kubur,
One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords. All of these have the large straight flat blades often seen on Pata's and Ferangi's, however uncommon on typical eastern blades.

Previous Pata post http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10945

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

PATA Circa 1700 (18th Century)
Nationality: Southern India Marathas
Overall Length: 129 cm 50 ¾ “
Blade length: 94 cm 37 “
Blade widest point: 4 cm 1 ½ ”
Hilt widest point: Gauntlet 34.6 cm 13 10/16” long 11.5 cm 4 ½ ”wide

This Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. A pair of plain metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Iron gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the dark brown gauntlet is decorated with brass and copper metal-work featuring floral and geometric designs.

General Remarks
The pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The patta consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade.

The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

References:
Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68
Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47
STONE, George Cameron, A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR IN ALL COUNTRIES AND IN ALL TIMES Pp 484-486

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

[Helleri]

Just as a matter of curiosity would it be possible to get a picture of the inside of the sleeve?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?
.

Look in Kinman page 28, orb and cross, Germany middle of 16th c. could be used later...

Originally Posted by fernando

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

Yes you are right to merge the threads. Thanks

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

I am pretty sure that for this type of dilemmas we will never have a clear cut answer. In the best case we might get a more likely/probable answer but we can never be sure.

That doesn't meas we should stop trying!

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I looked at your references, but I can't see any pictures, photos or drawings, that can support your interpretation for the Pata #1.
Please, it doesn't mean that I don't agree with you "in general". I agree, this decoration is common on Indian weapons. And the blade of the Pata #1 can be Indian, I have no problem with that too. I just need material evidences, not a note or an opinion.