Pata sword with European blade

fernando · 31st July 2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In which way do you mean?

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2016, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

Pattern welded...
very flexible (namely suited exclusively for a Pata)...

I am convinced this would be a classic example of an Indian made blade attempting to imitate the European ones.

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2016, 09:22 PM

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2016, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

A bottle of shampoo!!!?????

Forget the beer, get me a Drambuie and I'll bet I will see the peacocks!!

ariel · 1st August 2016, 09:42 AM

After a bottle of Drambuie I will find the peacocks on a bottle of Heads n' Shoulders!

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2016, 04:19 PM

Kubur,
One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

Cathey · 2nd August 2016, 06:03 AM

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords. All of these have the large straight flat blades often seen on Pata's and Ferangi's, however uncommon on typical eastern blades.

Previous Pata post http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10945

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

PATA Circa 1700 (18th Century)
Nationality: Southern India Marathas
Overall Length: 129 cm 50 ¾ “
Blade length: 94 cm 37 “
Blade widest point: 4 cm 1 ½ ”
Hilt widest point: Gauntlet 34.6 cm 13 10/16” long 11.5 cm 4 ½ ”wide

This Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. A pair of plain metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Iron gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the dark brown gauntlet is decorated with brass and copper metal-work featuring floral and geometric designs.

General Remarks
The pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The patta consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade.

The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

References:
Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68
Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47
STONE, George Cameron, A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR IN ALL COUNTRIES AND IN ALL TIMES Pp 484-486

Cheers Cathey and Rex

mariusgmioc · 2nd August 2016, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords.

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hello Cathey and Rex,

Thank you very much for the photos and info you provided!

I found rather confusing you mentioning that 17 century or earlier European sword were very flexible.

From all that I know European swords were exactly the contrary. They were very stiff and heavy as they were designed to deliver powerful blows against heavily armoured oponents. Powerful blows that were not necessarily supposed to cause any cuts but to shatter bones and throw opponents out of balance. Practically none of the European swords I know (and I handled quite a few) had blades flexible enough to be suitable for Patas.

Second, the citation you give from Rawson is very misleading at least.

Patas may have been effective weapons in certain circumstances but they are extremely ineffective in others. For example, Patas are effective fighting multiple enemies wearing no armour in relatively wide open spaces but are very ineffective in crammed battles or against armoured opponents. Moreover, Patas are effective at delivering slashing/whipping blows, but are definitely not effective at thrusting/stabbing as their greater flexibility and length will make them easily bend if they encounter the slightest resistance like chainmail or even bone. Also the whole arm grip, makes the Pata very unsuitable for close combat in crammed spaces because of difficulties in handling the blade.

So, I believe Rawson got his information from anecdotal sources that cannot stand thorough scrutiny, and this would be a good example where flawed information has become to be considered as reference.

It would be interesting to see what others have to say about this subject.

Regards,

Marius

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd August 2016, 01:48 PM

Marius,
I am with you. In another thread long ago it was suggested that the pata could be used as a lance. No it cant. The blade is far too flexible, and should you stab a man with a pata, you are likely to break your arm/shoulder or get the arm ripped off, as you can not let go of a pata as easily as you can with a tulwar.

Jim,
In the article Robert writes in Sultans of the South (pp. 218-233), he discusses the Indian and the European blades, and he ends the article by writing: "The Nomerous weapons of the Deccan reflect this diversity, and it remains difficult at attribute arms to a spacific court or to determine with certainty the origin of many of the firangi blades that are mounted on Indian gilts."
Francois Bernier who stayed in India from 1656 to 1668 writes: "...some Indian craftsmen can imitate European blades that the difference between the original and the copy can hardly be discerned." This quote is also from Robert's article.

Kubur.
You are right that Robert does not show the flower, so I did Google the name, here it is.

fernando · 2nd August 2016, 03:22 PM

I bet you guys are familiar with Elgood's work "Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Cenmturies: Their Manufacture and Influence of European Imports."
I know this is a recurrent approach, but ...

Among the various interesting passages, i would venture this one to be of some opportunity here:

.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd August 2016, 04:16 PM

Hi Fernando :-),
Your quote is, of course, from Sultans of the South - goes without saying :-).
Did you also read where it says, that the swords from EAC can not be sold in India, as the quality is too low????
You can find quotes matching most arguments - so why argue, as non of us lived then, and our knowledge comes from books written by someone living, and travelling in India at the time.
We do know, however, from several collections that Indian sword smiths did make both genuine Indian, as well as copies of European blade, of a very high quality.
We now discuss the high quality of the European blades, but I am sure that you will be able to find blades made in Germany of a lower/low quality than the ones from Solingen, and the same goes for the other blade exporting countries.

mariusgmioc · 2nd August 2016, 05:18 PM

Hello Jens and Fernando,

My issue is not so much related to the quality of the blades as high quality blades were manufactured both in Europe and in India, but more with the TYPE of blades manufactured.

My point is that the Pata requires a very specific type of blade, long, wide and very, very elastic that is incompatible with any type of European or otherwise sword I know.

Now Jim has mentioned the Kattara (sounds like a type of Katar

), but I am not familiar with this type of sword and I am planning to research more about it. However, there might be the possibility those swords use imported Indian blades, rather than the other way around.

In my line of logic, I believe that since the Pata blades were that peculiar and specific, it would be most logical they were manufactured locally, even if some of them were adorned with European-like decorations and markings. In other words, I find hard to concieve that European swordsmiths were producing this type of very special blades specifically for export to India.

Yes, there are some, maybe many, examples with Patas fitted with European rigid blades, but those Patas would have been extremely difficult, impractical and ineffective as weapons.

fernando · 2nd August 2016, 06:23 PM

Hi Marius,
I will not contest your knowledge of how patas were used in combat, in such way that they had to have extremily flexible blades, otherwise becoming impractical. I do not possess or have read any literature on that specific field, other than a written work mentioning that they required an intense school training.
But i make a point in questioning that the majority of pata blades were manufactured locally, as what i heard is the contrary.
In HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES by Rainer Daehnhardt he pretends that the majority pata blades were European, deliberately imported for such purpose, being brought by Portuguese and Venetian traders ... notwithstanding that the earlier examples of pata the author knows are from the end XV century and, in such cases, blades may have been repurposed from captured swords. Interesting to notice that, from the nine examples from the author's collection that illustrate the quoted book, only two are of Indian manufacture.
Of course this is worth what is worth.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd August 2016, 09:42 PM

Ok Marius, I agree with you when you say 'local' - if it can be meant in a broader sence in India.
I do also believe that there must have been a number of firangi pata blades, although I do not have any idea how widely they were spread.

ariel · 4th August 2016, 01:18 AM

AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one).

Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal. For that , Pata was a very appropriate weapon: far-reaching, with wide area of potential damage, powerful strokes ( driven by the entire arm rather than just elbow or wrist) and a built-in arm protection. No fancy fencing here :-)))
The elasticity of the Pata blade was a very Southern feature, reaching its apogee in Urumi, also not designed for any precise cuts, but for rapid and unpredictable slashing.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th October 2018, 04:34 PM

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2018, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

While this question was from some time back, isnt this pata Fernando is referring to looks like a dramatically cut down European blade and the 'L' is likely the last letter of the name on the blade. The cross and orb device was usually used in a motif fashion to close a phrase or wording or in cases a name. Looks 17th c.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th October 2018, 10:24 PM

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - thempting, but no.

Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2018, 12:06 AM

Thank you Jens for the great image on this. In seeing these up close it appears these lines, the cross and orb and whatever those letters are have been drawn or inscribed into a kind of simulated fuller. That last letter looks like a lazy 'Y'.
To me this suggests probably an Indian made blade estimating the markings often seen on European ones. The character of the globe and cross is very artistic compared to the European ones, and it seems usually not used as a terminus like this, but appears on its own. I do know of some cases where it does occur like this but usually it is an anchor in this place.

fernando · 30th October 2018, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2018, 04:07 PM

Helleri, I dont know how to do this, does anyone have an idea?
Would X-ray show anything? If it is possible, there will, no doubt, be so much dirt under the langet, so it will be impossible to see anything.

Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting.
Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade?
How old would you estimate the blade to be?

fernando · 30th October 2018, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting. Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade?
How old would you estimate the blade to be ?...

As you put it Jens, this is a maybe

.
Here is a 'bad' example of sword for the case, just to show you the clear text.This sword is from the XVIII century, whereas this type of inscription must have started to appear by the second half XVII century (or post-1640), as a patriotic acclaim during the restoration of the independence.
The inscription 'good' format is in the second set of pictures, where in a cup hilted sword/rapier of my little collection you may (hardly) discern the faded inscription divided one half in each side of the blade.

.

Kubur · 2nd November 2018, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

Mmmm the problem with Portugueses, everything has to be Portuguese...
And what about the Spanish??

fernando · 2nd November 2018, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Mmmm the problem with Portugueses, everything has to be Portuguese...
And what about the Spanish??

Would:
VIVA EL REY
DE ESPAÑA
... make you happy ?

By the way, the inscription on your blade most probably wasn't made by a Spaniard, but by a German (Solingen ?); i wouldn't know of España being written with a double NN

.

.

Lee · 2nd November 2018, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - tempting, but no.

I suppose if one had the contacts and resources, X-rays using modern digital detectors to generate images that can then be manipulated on a computer to apply false contrasts or color could disclose what the blade inscription actually says in an entirely non-destructive fashion. Of course, I have a European sword with an earlier medieval blade with what has been assumed in over a hundred years of literature to be the end of a medieval inscription, but I personally suspect it is only initials from the time of remounting and I do not have the contacts to lay that matter to rest. Similarly a couple of unproven possible Ulfberhts also remain in uncertainty. In any case, back on topic, that is one really nice pata!

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM

Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen.

The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription.

While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade.
While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed.

As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall.

As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it.

As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is....

a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.

fernando · 2nd November 2018, 07:20 PM

Jens, if you really wish to know what the inscription inside your wonderful pata gauntlet says, let me give you some inspiration.
For reasons different than discerning the contents of an inscription, i had a tremendous need to explore the interior of a little cannon. It came to my mind that years ago, when i worked in a determined construction site, i saw these guys examining the accuracy of the welded areas of a steel tube with an x-ray equipment. So i browsed the Net for a nearby similar service and found the headquarters of one, close from my place. I went there, "bent my knees" to the engineer in charge and the man even found it interesting to help me ... for free ... and with a smile. After all, one happens to have all the luck, some times.
Among countless variations, a couple enhanced images may be seen HERE.

On the other hand, the question prevails that your blade had a previous different purpose, as the inscription was 'obviously' meant to be all visible. One may realize that, having been forged to fit a 'classic' sword, would at a new stage be partially hidden by the gauntlet langets. But of course you know all that, much better than i do

.

fernando · 29th October 2018, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

Jens, if i was an imaginative person, and based on the blade being European, i would venture that the "L" is the last letter of Portugal. And this should take me to ask you if there isn't also a letter emerging from the langet on the other side

.

Helleri · 30th October 2018, 12:31 AM

Just as a matter of curiosity would it be possible to get a picture of the inside of the sleeve?

2nd August 2016, 06:03 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	European Blades on Pata's where common Hi Guys Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords. All of these have the large straight flat blades often seen on Pata's and Ferangi's, however uncommon on typical eastern blades. Previous Pata post http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10945 We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged. PATA Circa 1700 (18th Century) Nationality: Southern India Marathas Overall Length: 129 cm 50 ¾ “ Blade length: 94 cm 37 “ Blade widest point: 4 cm 1 ½ ” Hilt widest point: Gauntlet 34.6 cm 13 10/16” long 11.5 cm 4 ½ ”wide This Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. A pair of plain metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Iron gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the dark brown gauntlet is decorated with brass and copper metal-work featuring floral and geometric designs. General Remarks The pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The patta consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them. The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46). References: Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68 Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47 STONE, George Cameron, A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR IN ALL COUNTRIES AND IN ALL TIMES Pp 484-486 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

2nd August 2016, 01:48 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Marius, I am with you. In another thread long ago it was suggested that the pata could be used as a lance. No it cant. The blade is far too flexible, and should you stab a man with a pata, you are likely to break your arm/shoulder or get the arm ripped off, as you can not let go of a pata as easily as you can with a tulwar. Jim, In the article Robert writes in Sultans of the South (pp. 218-233), he discusses the Indian and the European blades, and he ends the article by writing: "The Nomerous weapons of the Deccan reflect this diversity, and it remains difficult at attribute arms to a spacific court or to determine with certainty the origin of many of the firangi blades that are mounted on Indian gilts." Francois Bernier who stayed in India from 1656 to 1668 writes: "...some Indian craftsmen can imitate European blades that the difference between the original and the copy can hardly be discerned." This quote is also from Robert's article. Kubur. You are right that Robert does not show the flower, so I did Google the name, here it is. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 2nd August 2016 at 02:09 PM.

2nd August 2016, 05:18 PM	#13
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Jens and Fernando, My issue is not so much related to the quality of the blades as high quality blades were manufactured both in Europe and in India, but more with the TYPE of blades manufactured. My point is that the Pata requires a very specific type of blade, long, wide and very, very elastic that is incompatible with any type of European or otherwise sword I know. Now Jim has mentioned the Kattara (sounds like a type of Katar ), but I am not familiar with this type of sword and I am planning to research more about it. However, there might be the possibility those swords use imported Indian blades, rather than the other way around. In my line of logic, I believe that since the Pata blades were that peculiar and specific, it would be most logical they were manufactured locally, even if some of them were adorned with European-like decorations and markings. In other words, I find hard to concieve that European swordsmiths were producing this type of very special blades specifically for export to India. Yes, there are some, maybe many, examples with Patas fitted with European rigid blades, but those Patas would have been extremely difficult, impractical and ineffective as weapons. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 2nd August 2016 at 05:38 PM.

29th October 2018, 10:24 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - thempting, but no. Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 29th October 2018 at 10:35 PM.

30th October 2018, 04:07 PM	#22
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Helleri, I dont know how to do this, does anyone have an idea? Would X-ray show anything? If it is possible, there will, no doubt, be so much dirt under the langet, so it will be impossible to see anything. Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting. Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade? How old would you estimate the blade to be? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 30th October 2018 at 04:24 PM.

31st July 2016, 09:22 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible. So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon. I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

1st August 2016, 09:42 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	After a bottle of Drambuie I will find the peacocks on a bottle of Heads n' Shoulders!

31st July 2016, 04:19 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kubur, One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

2nd August 2016, 04:16 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando :-), Your quote is, of course, from Sultans of the South - goes without saying :-). Did you also read where it says, that the swords from EAC can not be sold in India, as the quality is too low???? You can find quotes matching most arguments - so why argue, as non of us lived then, and our knowledge comes from books written by someone living, and travelling in India at the time. We do know, however, from several collections that Indian sword smiths did make both genuine Indian, as well as copies of European blade, of a very high quality. We now discuss the high quality of the European blades, but I am sure that you will be able to find blades made in Germany of a lower/low quality than the ones from Solingen, and the same goes for the other blade exporting countries.

2nd August 2016, 06:23 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Marius, I will not contest your knowledge of how patas were used in combat, in such way that they had to have extremily flexible blades, otherwise becoming impractical. I do not possess or have read any literature on that specific field, other than a written work mentioning that they required an intense school training. But i make a point in questioning that the majority of pata blades were manufactured locally, as what i heard is the contrary. In HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES by Rainer Daehnhardt he pretends that the majority pata blades were European, deliberately imported for such purpose, being brought by Portuguese and Venetian traders ... notwithstanding that the earlier examples of pata the author knows are from the end XV century and, in such cases, blades may have been repurposed from captured swords. Interesting to notice that, from the nine examples from the author's collection that illustrate the quoted book, only two are of Indian manufacture. Of course this is worth what is worth.

2nd August 2016, 09:42 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ok Marius, I agree with you when you say 'local' - if it can be meant in a broader sence in India. I do also believe that there must have been a number of firangi pata blades, although I do not have any idea how widely they were spread.

4th August 2016, 01:18 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one). Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal. For that , Pata was a very appropriate weapon: far-reaching, with wide area of potential damage, powerful strokes ( driven by the entire arm rather than just elbow or wrist) and a built-in arm protection. No fancy fencing here :-))) The elasticity of the Pata blade was a very Southern feature, reaching its apogee in Urumi, also not designed for any precise cuts, but for rapid and unpredictable slashing.

29th October 2018, 04:34 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet. Jens

30th October 2018, 12:06 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Jens for the great image on this. In seeing these up close it appears these lines, the cross and orb and whatever those letters are have been drawn or inscribed into a kind of simulated fuller. That last letter looks like a lazy 'Y'. To me this suggests probably an Indian made blade estimating the markings often seen on European ones. The character of the globe and cross is very artistic compared to the European ones, and it seems usually not used as a terminus like this, but appears on its own. I do know of some cases where it does occur like this but usually it is an anchor in this place.

2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM	#27
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen. The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription. While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade. While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed. As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall. As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it. As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is.... a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.

2nd November 2018, 07:20 PM	#28
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jens, if you really wish to know what the inscription inside your wonderful pata gauntlet says, let me give you some inspiration. For reasons different than discerning the contents of an inscription, i had a tremendous need to explore the interior of a little cannon. It came to my mind that years ago, when i worked in a determined construction site, i saw these guys examining the accuracy of the welded areas of a steel tube with an x-ray equipment. So i browsed the Net for a nearby similar service and found the headquarters of one, close from my place. I went there, "bent my knees" to the engineer in charge and the man even found it interesting to help me ... for free ... and with a smile. After all, one happens to have all the luck, some times. Among countless variations, a couple enhanced images may be seen HERE. On the other hand, the question prevails that your blade had a previous different purpose, as the inscription was 'obviously' meant to be all visible. One may realize that, having been forged to fit a 'classic' sword, would at a new stage be partially hidden by the gauntlet langets. But of course you know all that, much better than i do .

30th October 2018, 12:31 AM	#30
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Just as a matter of curiosity would it be possible to get a picture of the inside of the sleeve?