Pata sword with European blade

ariel · 4th August 2016, 01:18 AM

AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one).

Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal. For that , Pata was a very appropriate weapon: far-reaching, with wide area of potential damage, powerful strokes ( driven by the entire arm rather than just elbow or wrist) and a built-in arm protection. No fancy fencing here :-)))
The elasticity of the Pata blade was a very Southern feature, reaching its apogee in Urumi, also not designed for any precise cuts, but for rapid and unpredictable slashing.

fernando · 4th August 2016, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one)...

Well noted 'predominantely', if i may; Sikhs and Rajputs also gave it a little hand. And, confirming that the exception makes the rule, there is a XVIII century beautiful Pata at the Met, doubtlessly made for a Muslim, inscribed with Qur'anic verse and a reference to Dhu'l faqar ... and with an XVI century European blade, for a change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal.

Interesting approach ! A different version may also be concluded from written stuff and historical evidence.
Shivaji is said to have built a disciplined military force. He innovated military tactics, pioneering the guerrilla warfare methods, which leveraged strategic factors like geography, speed, and surprise and focused pinpoint attacks to defeat his larger and more powerful enemies.
If not, history tells us that, at the beginning of the XVIII century, the Marathas led by Chimaji Appa fought several battles against the Portuguese, by then a weakened adversary, managing to drive them out of Western India.

.

ariel · 4th August 2016, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Interesting approach ! A different version may also be concluded from written stuff and historical evidence.
Shivaji .... innovated military tactics, pioneering the guerrilla warfare methods, which leveraged strategic factors like geography, speed, and surprise and focused pinpoint attacks to defeat his larger and more powerful enemies.

.

That was exactly what I was talking about :-))

fernando · 4th August 2016, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

That was exactly what I was talking about :-))

I know you were, Ariel; i was more focusing on that part of the Mahratta cavalry being irregular, and poorly disciplined. Apparently Shivaji has inovated military tactics of the period, being the pioneer of guerilla tactics "Shiva sutra" or Ganimi Kava.

fernando · 4th August 2016, 07:11 PM

Interesting image of 'SIVAJI ON THE MARCH', Jim. Note the few infantry men also armed with a pata, suggesting that this weapon was not exclusive of Cavalry.
Here is a portrait of the man alone, holding a pata; surely the image previously mentioned by Ariel.

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th August 2016, 02:21 PM

I remembered taking these pictures ...Early forms if I remember rightly...and exploring something of the Ethnographic as one seems to be a training stick version whilst the other looks to be wood carved in the hand/arm-guard. It could be argued that the older or more animalistic shaped the arm and handguard ...The more Zoomorphic ~ the older the weapon...and the more geometric the design the less old the weapon.
Looking at the baseline..for the basics... I illustrate what Wikipedia says viz
Quote"History
Created during the Mughal period, the pata's use in warfare appears to be mostly restricted to the 17th century when the Marathas came into prominence. Ranging in length from 10 to 44 inches, it was considered to be a highly effective weapon for infantrymen against heavily armoured cavalry. Folklore has it that a Maratha soldier would use the dandpatta when encircled, so as to maximize the casualties on the opposition, before he fell. The founder of the Maratha Empire, Emperor Shivaji, was reputedly trained in the art of fighting with pata. One of his generals, Tanaji Malusare, wielded the weapon with both hands during the Battle of Sinhagad, before one of his hands was cut off by the Rajput Udaybhan Singh Rathod".Unquote.

Once again refering to the basic note... From The Caravana collection I Quote"The Patta Sword;
The pata, patta, dand patta or dandpatta is an Indian sword with a gauntlet integrated as a handguard. Basically the sword has a wide and long hilt where the blade is integrated. The use of the term Patta or Patá is possibly linked to Portuguese terminology regarding what the sword resembles – a paw (pata in Portuguese) or a quadruped member.
This is a notable example of a Patta the most characteristic Maratha weapon and exclusively used in the Indian subcontinent. It has a double edged blade, made of steel originating in Europe, which is quite common in high quality Pattas.

The Patta was the most used weapon by Hindu fighting monks. These made battle on foot and could easily decapitate a horseman who attacked them. There were, however, many Mughal noblemen who used them when horse riding, as is possible to observe in miniatures from the 1700s.

Portuguese armies did not get to use the Patta, but they were used by many of the auxiliary Hindu forces which fought as allies to the Portuguese viceroys of India. Although it is the edged weapon with the largest action radius ever made, it is also a hard to handle weapon, which demanded not only physical strength but also prolonged training".Unquote.

From http://www.runjeetsingh.com/cat-2015-winter/14 I note an interesting potential mixture perhaps pointing toward a relationship between the Kattar dagger and the Pata or Dandpata...here...

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2016, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Interesting image of 'SIVAJI ON THE MARCH', Jim. Note the few infantry men also armed with a pata, suggesting that this weapon was not exclusive of Cavalry.
Here is a portrait of the man alone, holding a pata; surely the image previously mentioned by Ariel.

.

\

Thank you Fernando, what a fantastic portrait!!
It is interesting, as Ariel has noted, how many of these powerful historic figures were indeed diminutive in size, and notably 'embellished' accordingly larger in artwork of the times.
Also, it does seem that of course, the length of these 'extended katars' would have been well used by infantry. In this regard, I wonder about Rajput use, as it seems that their standard of combat was geared toward dismounting to fight.
As in the detail added by Ibrahiim notes, these longer swords could easily reach horsemen. I would imagine in a melee, that would be possible if the rider were maneuvering and in downward posture for any reason.
Hard to imagine all the probabilities.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2016, 09:00 PM

In The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. Rajendralala Mitra on page 198 writes something I find quite interesting.

"The Marhattas had a large steel gauntlet, but it has no ancient name."

We must remember that Mitra wrote about ancient Orissa temple statue decorations, and not about such 'modern' weapons as the ones from the 16th or 17 th century:-).

This leads me to think that the gauntles sword/dagger maybe could be from the 16th century, and not much earlier - if earlier at all.

4th August 2016, 07:11 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Interesting image of 'SIVAJI ON THE MARCH', Jim. Note the few infantry men also armed with a pata, suggesting that this weapon was not exclusive of Cavalry. Here is a portrait of the man alone, holding a pata; surely the image previously mentioned by Ariel. . Attached Images

6th August 2016, 02:21 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I remembered taking these pictures ...Early forms if I remember rightly...and exploring something of the Ethnographic as one seems to be a training stick version whilst the other looks to be wood carved in the hand/arm-guard. It could be argued that the older or more animalistic shaped the arm and handguard ...The more Zoomorphic ~ the older the weapon...and the more geometric the design the less old the weapon. Looking at the baseline..for the basics... I illustrate what Wikipedia says viz Quote"History Created during the Mughal period, the pata's use in warfare appears to be mostly restricted to the 17th century when the Marathas came into prominence. Ranging in length from 10 to 44 inches, it was considered to be a highly effective weapon for infantrymen against heavily armoured cavalry. Folklore has it that a Maratha soldier would use the dandpatta when encircled, so as to maximize the casualties on the opposition, before he fell. The founder of the Maratha Empire, Emperor Shivaji, was reputedly trained in the art of fighting with pata. One of his generals, Tanaji Malusare, wielded the weapon with both hands during the Battle of Sinhagad, before one of his hands was cut off by the Rajput Udaybhan Singh Rathod".Unquote. Once again refering to the basic note... From The Caravana collection I Quote"The Patta Sword; The pata, patta, dand patta or dandpatta is an Indian sword with a gauntlet integrated as a handguard. Basically the sword has a wide and long hilt where the blade is integrated. The use of the term Patta or Patá is possibly linked to Portuguese terminology regarding what the sword resembles – a paw (pata in Portuguese) or a quadruped member. This is a notable example of a Patta the most characteristic Maratha weapon and exclusively used in the Indian subcontinent. It has a double edged blade, made of steel originating in Europe, which is quite common in high quality Pattas. The Patta was the most used weapon by Hindu fighting monks. These made battle on foot and could easily decapitate a horseman who attacked them. There were, however, many Mughal noblemen who used them when horse riding, as is possible to observe in miniatures from the 1700s. Portuguese armies did not get to use the Patta, but they were used by many of the auxiliary Hindu forces which fought as allies to the Portuguese viceroys of India. Although it is the edged weapon with the largest action radius ever made, it is also a hard to handle weapon, which demanded not only physical strength but also prolonged training".Unquote. From http://www.runjeetsingh.com/cat-2015-winter/14 I note an interesting potential mixture perhaps pointing toward a relationship between the Kattar dagger and the Pata or Dandpata...here... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th August 2016 at 03:14 PM.

4th August 2016, 01:18 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one). Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal. For that , Pata was a very appropriate weapon: far-reaching, with wide area of potential damage, powerful strokes ( driven by the entire arm rather than just elbow or wrist) and a built-in arm protection. No fancy fencing here :-))) The elasticity of the Pata blade was a very Southern feature, reaching its apogee in Urumi, also not designed for any precise cuts, but for rapid and unpredictable slashing.

7th August 2016, 09:00 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. Rajendralala Mitra on page 198 writes something I find quite interesting. "The Marhattas had a large steel gauntlet, but it has no ancient name." We must remember that Mitra wrote about ancient Orissa temple statue decorations, and not about such 'modern' weapons as the ones from the 16th or 17 th century:-). This leads me to think that the gauntles sword/dagger maybe could be from the 16th century, and not much earlier - if earlier at all.