Pata sword with European blade

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

I would retract my note earlier that these central fuller blades did not often appear on pata, as it would appear that they did, in the multitude of variations and possibilities with imported blades over such a long time.

The cross and orb mark is of course not a makers mark, but a device used in general motif of European blades, usually enclosing words or phrases etc. but later simply used singly on occasion in symbolic or quality sense.
On Jens' sword, it appears to terminate such an inscriptive panel now covered by the bolster. This corresponds to the period he describes and European.

While widely copied, usually by native artisans, the cross and orb was primarily German and N. European . It was used from 16th-18th c.

Kubur, good note from Staffan's excellent book!!!on the cross and orb, profusely used in many cases of wide range.
Also, excellent observation on p90 of Kinman, this Wirsberg blade has an inscribed panel which has what may be construed as such a floral device, however this 8 leaf example is what is often regarded as a 'paternoster' associated symbol in N. Europe (Netherlands) and on German blades for those markets. The 'crennelations' are compelling, and further suggestion of the kinds of motif from such blades being imitated by native artisans.

In Egerton (1884), numerous examples, mostly pata or other 'long' swords, (#57, 61,62,63) with the blades elaborated as 'very flexible' and European; elastic steel of European workmanship; and European with flexible steel.

Elgood (2004) describes on p,202
" Tory describes in 1612 how the India swords are very sharp but for want of skill in those that temper them, will break rather than bend . "
He notes the demand for European swords, and Shah Jehan preferring 'Alemaine' (German) blades, but these in the north was referring to shamshirs or sabres,

"...long 'FIRANGI' blades became a status symbol in the 17th c. and English swords which bow and become straight again sold at high prices. In the 1660s Thevenot remarks that the swords made by the Indians are very brittle and that good ones are brought from England'.

Here I would note that in a number of these cases, the blades described are notably curved and may refer to wootz shamshir blades, which if not properly produced with the key ore from sources in India containing the mineral impurities required for the nanostructure will indeed be brittle.
British impairment of the wootz industry in the 19th c. case in point.

The demand for imported blades seems quite well supported through the 16t through 19th century, and the 'English' provided blades were more often than not acquired by British merchants from Solingen sources and 'Alemain' not English.

[Jim McDougall]

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:
This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.
Thank you.

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.

Very interesting "out of the box" perspective! Thank you! Your drawings are quite self-explanatory.

However, I can still see the "flower" symbol and no Maltese cross.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry I dont know where I 'hid' the flower.

[kronckew]

reminds me of the 'flowers' on choora.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=choora

including mine

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

LOL!!! Kubur, when you first posted your pata, I spent some hours going through notes and trying to formulate a useful assessment on your sword (my post #6). It is unusual as I personally have not seen such a motif, in triple cartouches, on an Indian sword blade.

In your post #9, you note that 'like Jim, I see Maltese crosses', further noting you had trouble believing that 'nobody on this forum could establish origin of this blade!
It seems my observations were not of notable value, and you suggested (your post #14)that African makers certainly were not capable of making good blades.....and that you were hoping for 'other comments'.

I admit that my research on both African and Indian swords only spans several decades, and the last time I researched this particular floral motif was probably 5 or more years ago. I do remember that there were certain occasions when African and Indian influences did appear compellingly connected.

Today you disparagingly have overlooked my insufficient comments and observations from the noted posts, and have 'promoted' (?) me to 'guru?
It is funny that you claim that I am a 'victim of my knowledge' , must admit I have not heard that one before !!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?

So apparently since the earlier posts, I have gone from astute observer with irrelevant observations, to a guru blinded by my experience and knowledge ?

Please understand, this is an interesting discussion on a most interesting sword you have, and my efforts have not been to 'be a guru' or any such nonsense, but trying to help when you insisted on better suggestions than those I offered.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

[Jim McDougall]

Jens,
Thank you so much for the data on the four petal flower Ixora Coccinea which indeed does have remarkable similarity, and very well might suggest Indian application.
The interesting footnote in Elgood is I think #7, which suggests that the 'X' is often used in place of the 'sh' in pronouncing Shiva. The red flower 'vetchi' is sacred to Shiva.
Combined with Wayne's interesting note on flowers on choora, that crenellated design characteristic on these and Khyber knives is a compelling comparison to the inscribed design on this blade within the squares.

This seems strong potential for Indian origin for the blade, as you have suggested, and I would note that contrary to the many references to inferior Indian blades, it seems mostly toward the wootz having infractions. With regularly forged blades, they were of much desired quality and sought after in Arabia, thus probably often entering those trade spheres.

This seems contradictory, but it seems there are many variables, and often European blades were favored, but clearly Indian blades were equally satisfactory.

I hope these further notes might be useful in assisting Kubur with the pata in the OP. It does help to expand the discussion to note these variables.

[Jim McDougall]

Found an example of pata with African blade:
This is just one I found, but as I mentioned I have owned one much like this for any years, and I have seen numbers of them.
The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' which according to Rodd (1928) has triple channels in the center of the broadsword blade. The two outside channels each at the terminus has a small crescent moon termed 'dukari'.
These blades are exclusive to North Africa, and are typically regarded as of Hausa production and found in Saharan (takouba) and many kaskara (Sudanese) swords (Briggs, 1965).

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

LOL!!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

Thank you Kubur, clearly I did misunderstand, and absolutely right, it is good to maintain a good perspective through humor and patience as these complicated matters are difficult enough to sort through.
Having noted that, thank you for the compliment as well, though quite honestly I am no guru and my 'knowledge' is simply the cumulation of the hours I spend sorting through notes and references before I write.

You are exactly right to expect evidence, the mark of a sound researcher. Also, it is important to often alter opinions and views on subjects as that becomes available, that is if what is presented is viable or compelling, if not positively resounding.
That is the reason for our forums, to discuss and share information and work together in finding resolutions. As Marius has well noted, the absolute answers may not be found....YET....but we never stop trying!

As seen with the excellent entries by Jens with views of this important four petal flower, now that is compelling!!!
There are most certainly NO flowers like that growing in the Sahara!
Therefore, it would seem likely such a design would have diffused FROM Indian to the African sphere, which as earlier noted, is profoundly recognized with weapon forms as well as instances of blades etc.

As Jens also notes, he is yet unconvinced of this blade being European, and I also must note that my theory on that is surely not yet firm. The only thing on the blade which leads me toward European origin is the notable outlining of the sides of the blade, which if I recall was occasioned on certain blades of Spanish and Italian origin. This would be in line with the notes on 'firangi' (Elgood, 2004, p.245), which notes the volume of blades in India on katars in Tanjore (usually cut down of course) bearing the names from Italy, Portugal, German and England. Obviously Spanish would also be present but blades were often of the markets for other countries.

There are numbers of other references concerning the use of 'foreign' blades in India, even before the opening of Portuguese sea routes in the early 16th century (narratives dating pre 1507) (Elgood, 2004, p39).

On p.12, Elgood notes the volume of foreign goods sought and the enthusiastic adoption of European steel blades by Hindus, then mounted in local hilts. In fact, it is noted that in these early times arms were included in the volumes of goods from Venice to India. The numbers of 16th and 17th century blades present in a wide scope of decorated hilts varying in style suggest according to Elgood, that they had clearly been in use in India for some time and cannot be from a single shipment or victory.
Here, I would suggest that the option of surplus or worn blades from Europe might well have been exported, much as with the post crusades swords out of Malta into North Africa.

Which brings me to the flower/cross dilemma.
Actually when I first saw these floral designs on takouba hilts, I actually first saw the Maltese cross!!!! That was years ago, and I recall thinking that perhaps these were a native allusion to the cross pattee known to have been used by the crusaders. One of the longest lived notions of European writers was that the swords of the natives WERE the swords of the crusaders!
Actually the earliest volume of broadswords coming into Africa via the ports and entrepots of the littoral from Tunisia to Algeria was from Malta, which was an interim port carrying surplus goods from Europe and trade ports in those networks.

Later I saw the figure as a four petal flower, and regarded this symbol as another means of conveying the key device in Saharan, and much of these native folk traditions and religions as representing the four cardinal directions in an ecumenical sense.

Admittedly, at that point the possibility of connection to India had not yet been considered.
So Kubur, thank you for the drawings and perspective, and as always, Jens for your ever keen insights into the mysteries of Indian arms.

I wanted to write on some of the other aspects, but this treatise has turned into another Indian epic already!!! So many talking points and had to write to get them together, so thank you for those of you with the endurance to read this.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

Salaams Jim , Your examples on sword and dagger are almost identical to the designs on the Patta. It occurred to me that both Indian and European blades were used in this weapon and either African / European trade blades or home grown African or straight forward export to India European blades could easily have been produced... In this case certainly carrying African motifs...for sure.
I note that these weapons could be deployed one in each hand and the flexibility was reasonable ~ I assume if used in a cyclic action the slash and cut potential of these blades would be substantial although one could be used in unison with an axe or other weapon and later a combination pistol and Patta was invented.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[mariusgmioc]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Marius.
I have been studying these weapons for far more years (decades) than I can really say, and still feel like a novice. I learn more each day, and it seems for every answer there are so many more questions.

Complex is a good word for this fascinating field of conundrums!
The only thing with reasonable consistency is hilts, which generally will hold in some degree to local regions or cultural spheres. Blades however, were transmitted far and wide as a trade commodity, and their movements could be interrupted or entirely rerouted in accord with the constant flux of geopolitical events, warfare, changes in trade agreements etc.

I know I have seen this four petal in square design in other cases in North African weapons, and so far only found notes suggesting the design as far as Tunisia and into Saharan regions. It is hard to say whether it corresponds to something European, but we know that various European marks were duplicated by native workers in Africa often in multiple or repeated forms and other configurations. The familiar 'dukari' (paired crescent moons) are examples of such variations of European marks.

As for these 'floral squares' being placed on an imported European blade in India, it is of course possible, but as far as I have seen, unlikely. As I have said though, that is only my thought at present and quite frankly I hope someone comes up with an example of these exact kind of squares on a European blade, or on another Indian blade, which will confirm otherwise.
For me it is never being right or wrong......just learning!