Pata sword with European blade

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2016, 01:41 PM

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Kubur · 30th July 2016, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Thank you all for the reference! and the link!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Why not, but the decoration is going right under the rivets and the pata.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 12:56 PM

My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design.

The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry.

While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount.

And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths.

I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo).

Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2016, 01:50 PM

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2016, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

I would retract my note earlier that these central fuller blades did not often appear on pata, as it would appear that they did, in the multitude of variations and possibilities with imported blades over such a long time.

The cross and orb mark is of course not a makers mark, but a device used in general motif of European blades, usually enclosing words or phrases etc. but later simply used singly on occasion in symbolic or quality sense.
On Jens' sword, it appears to terminate such an inscriptive panel now covered by the bolster. This corresponds to the period he describes and European.

While widely copied, usually by native artisans, the cross and orb was primarily German and N. European . It was used from 16th-18th c.

Kubur, good note from Staffan's excellent book!!!on the cross and orb, profusely used in many cases of wide range.
Also, excellent observation on p90 of Kinman, this Wirsberg blade has an inscribed panel which has what may be construed as such a floral device, however this 8 leaf example is what is often regarded as a 'paternoster' associated symbol in N. Europe (Netherlands) and on German blades for those markets. The 'crennelations' are compelling, and further suggestion of the kinds of motif from such blades being imitated by native artisans.

In Egerton (1884), numerous examples, mostly pata or other 'long' swords, (#57, 61,62,63) with the blades elaborated as 'very flexible' and European; elastic steel of European workmanship; and European with flexible steel.

Elgood (2004) describes on p,202
" Tory describes in 1612 how the India swords are very sharp but for want of skill in those that temper them, will break rather than bend . "
He notes the demand for European swords, and Shah Jehan preferring 'Alemaine' (German) blades, but these in the north was referring to shamshirs or sabres,

"...long 'FIRANGI' blades became a status symbol in the 17th c. and English swords which bow and become straight again sold at high prices. In the 1660s Thevenot remarks that the swords made by the Indians are very brittle and that good ones are brought from England'.

Here I would note that in a number of these cases, the blades described are notably curved and may refer to wootz shamshir blades, which if not properly produced with the key ore from sources in India containing the mineral impurities required for the nanostructure will indeed be brittle.
British impairment of the wootz industry in the 19th c. case in point.

The demand for imported blades seems quite well supported through the 16t through 19th century, and the 'English' provided blades were more often than not acquired by British merchants from Solingen sources and 'Alemain' not English.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2016, 05:22 AM

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.

Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

mariusgmioc · 1st August 2016, 06:51 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

fernando · 31st July 2016, 03:23 PM

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2016, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

In which way do you mean?

fernando · 31st July 2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In which way do you mean?

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

Kubur · 31st July 2016, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?
.

Look in Kinman page 28, orb and cross, Germany middle of 16th c. could be used later...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

Yes you are right to merge the threads. Thanks

Jens Nordlunde · 1st August 2016, 10:32 AM

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

31st July 2016, 12:56 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design. The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry. While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount. And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths. I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo). Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078 Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 31st July 2016 at 06:20 PM.

31st July 2016, 01:50 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century. Attached Images

1st August 2016, 05:22 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Addendum: The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92). Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP. This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c, It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades. These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions. Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade. While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German). This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here , and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts. Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you. Attached Images

31st July 2016, 03:23 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beautiful examples. Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ? . Attached Images

30th July 2016, 01:41 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file. Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

1st August 2016, 06:51 AM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'. These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years). Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing. Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

1st August 2016, 10:32 AM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-). The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts. I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books. Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show. Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.