Pata sword with European blade

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM

Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen.

The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription.

While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade.
While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed.

As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall.

As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it.

As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is....

a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.

fernando · 2nd November 2018, 07:20 PM

Jens, if you really wish to know what the inscription inside your wonderful pata gauntlet says, let me give you some inspiration.
For reasons different than discerning the contents of an inscription, i had a tremendous need to explore the interior of a little cannon. It came to my mind that years ago, when i worked in a determined construction site, i saw these guys examining the accuracy of the welded areas of a steel tube with an x-ray equipment. So i browsed the Net for a nearby similar service and found the headquarters of one, close from my place. I went there, "bent my knees" to the engineer in charge and the man even found it interesting to help me ... for free ... and with a smile. After all, one happens to have all the luck, some times.
Among countless variations, a couple enhanced images may be seen HERE.

On the other hand, the question prevails that your blade had a previous different purpose, as the inscription was 'obviously' meant to be all visible. One may realize that, having been forged to fit a 'classic' sword, would at a new stage be partially hidden by the gauntlet langets. But of course you know all that, much better than i do

.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd November 2018, 05:05 PM

Fernando, thank you very much for the tip which is interesting, but after a second thought I think I will leave it as it is.
The texxt could maybe be as you say, but made by an Indian hand.

fernando · 3rd November 2018, 06:19 PM

Fair enough, Jens.

2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen. The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription. While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade. While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed. As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall. As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it. As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is.... a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.

2nd November 2018, 07:20 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jens, if you really wish to know what the inscription inside your wonderful pata gauntlet says, let me give you some inspiration. For reasons different than discerning the contents of an inscription, i had a tremendous need to explore the interior of a little cannon. It came to my mind that years ago, when i worked in a determined construction site, i saw these guys examining the accuracy of the welded areas of a steel tube with an x-ray equipment. So i browsed the Net for a nearby similar service and found the headquarters of one, close from my place. I went there, "bent my knees" to the engineer in charge and the man even found it interesting to help me ... for free ... and with a smile. After all, one happens to have all the luck, some times. Among countless variations, a couple enhanced images may be seen HERE. On the other hand, the question prevails that your blade had a previous different purpose, as the inscription was 'obviously' meant to be all visible. One may realize that, having been forged to fit a 'classic' sword, would at a new stage be partially hidden by the gauntlet langets. But of course you know all that, much better than i do .

3rd November 2018, 05:05 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, thank you very much for the tip which is interesting, but after a second thought I think I will leave it as it is. The texxt could maybe be as you say, but made by an Indian hand.

3rd November 2018, 06:19 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fair enough, Jens.