my Albacete Dagger

fernando · 4th November 2022, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'...

Those had to be the exact size of the barrel bore. One serious issue is that they eventually got stuck and hard to dismount.
I guess the real wobbling hardly occurred with 'current' plug bayonets, assuming the wooden grip has a slowly progressive taper ending with the usual 'bulb'.
Speaking of which, wobling is the reason why the Albacete dagger like yours can not be confused with a plug bayonet. But of course you now that; yet some don't.

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kronckew · 4th November 2022, 06:21 PM

Fernando: exactly! Nice drawing!

fernando · 5th November 2022, 10:40 AM

... And how plug bayonets did their job at mounting on end XVIII and beg. XIX century Spanish hunting muskets.

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David R · 5th November 2022, 11:02 AM

Well, seeing as we have a nice thread going here I will add in my example. No blade piercing, and the grip panelled with brass and "ivory" glued with pitch or resin to the wooden core. Some damage to the grip panels but mainly sound.
The scabbard looks to be very thin wood strips, possibly card, covered in cotton velvet and very thin brass mounts.

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2022, 02:08 PM

It is a great thread, and these DAGGERS bring discussed are intriguing as they are vestigially recalling the form of much earlier PLUG BAYONETS with the distinctive hilt form, which as well explained by Fernando were designed to fit into the barrel of guns.

Most interesting is that in Spain, notably many examples from Albacete, continued being produced well into the 19th century, despite the fact that rifled gun barrels could no longer accept the hilts into them. The reason for this continued holding to the 'plug bayonet' form of the hilts, even though they were of course used as knives for hunting was the typical Spanish penchant for maintaining traditional styles. This was much the same as the continued use of the cup hilt rapier long after it was considered obsolete with the advent of the small sword.

The traditional presence of vestigial features in weaponry is well known in many cases, with one prime example being the pas d'ane in the small sword which served as a finger guard and securing loop in early small swords. By the end of the 18th century these became smaller but still present though no longer used, but retained as part of the traditional structure of these hilts.

If I may use another analogy beyond weaponry, in the US automotive design has been a key aspect culturally, particularly in the earlier years as design innovation was creative and artistic. Many autos of the 30s and later had features imitating aerodynamic designs and often copied notable elements from airplanes.
Some of the sportier cars had exhaust ports extending out of the hood area imitating those on some fighter planes. In the late 40s, early 1950s, the Buick automobile had a hood design with several 'ports' simply as decorative features, recalling those exhaust ports, but not of course, functional.

These 'vestigial' features, though not at all functional, clearly recalled the earlier auto designs, and by that virtue, the use of aircraft design and structural features in the auto design traditions in earlier years.

When I described a dagger, of plug bayonet 'form', it was noting that by appearance, it vestigially recalled the origins of the hilt design, and while NOT a plug bayonet in actuality, it remained associated in this sense.

I rest my case

On that note, Wayne, this is an OUTSTANDING example of this weapon type! especially witb the brass insert still in the aperture.

corrado26 · 5th November 2022, 03:39 PM

Here some pieces of my former collection of Albacete daggers. They are now back in Spain again. No one would have the idea that the lantern type or the one with the thick grip could be used as a plug bayonet.

fernando · 5th November 2022, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I rest my case

...

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.

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Jim McDougall · 5th November 2022, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.

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Oh no! They look like plug bayonets!!!
First I find out the truth about Santa Claus.....NOW I find there is no such thing as an Albacete plug bayonet!!!

5th November 2022, 10:40 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... And how plug bayonets did their job at mounting on end XVIII and beg. XIX century Spanish hunting muskets. . Attached Images

5th November 2022, 11:02 AM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,123	Well, seeing as we have a nice thread going here I will add in my example. No blade piercing, and the grip panelled with brass and "ivory" glued with pitch or resin to the wooden core. Some damage to the grip panels but mainly sound. The scabbard looks to be very thin wood strips, possibly card, covered in cotton velvet and very thin brass mounts. Attached Images

5th November 2022, 03:39 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	Here some pieces of my former collection of Albacete daggers. They are now back in Spain again. No one would have the idea that the lantern type or the one with the thick grip could be used as a plug bayonet. Attached Images

4th November 2022, 06:21 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	Fernando: exactly! Nice drawing!

5th November 2022, 02:08 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	It is a great thread, and these DAGGERS bring discussed are intriguing as they are vestigially recalling the form of much earlier PLUG BAYONETS with the distinctive hilt form, which as well explained by Fernando were designed to fit into the barrel of guns. Most interesting is that in Spain, notably many examples from Albacete, continued being produced well into the 19th century, despite the fact that rifled gun barrels could no longer accept the hilts into them. The reason for this continued holding to the 'plug bayonet' form of the hilts, even though they were of course used as knives for hunting was the typical Spanish penchant for maintaining traditional styles. This was much the same as the continued use of the cup hilt rapier long after it was considered obsolete with the advent of the small sword. The traditional presence of vestigial features in weaponry is well known in many cases, with one prime example being the pas d'ane in the small sword which served as a finger guard and securing loop in early small swords. By the end of the 18th century these became smaller but still present though no longer used, but retained as part of the traditional structure of these hilts. If I may use another analogy beyond weaponry, in the US automotive design has been a key aspect culturally, particularly in the earlier years as design innovation was creative and artistic. Many autos of the 30s and later had features imitating aerodynamic designs and often copied notable elements from airplanes. Some of the sportier cars had exhaust ports extending out of the hood area imitating those on some fighter planes. In the late 40s, early 1950s, the Buick automobile had a hood design with several 'ports' simply as decorative features, recalling those exhaust ports, but not of course, functional. These 'vestigial' features, though not at all functional, clearly recalled the earlier auto designs, and by that virtue, the use of aircraft design and structural features in the auto design traditions in earlier years. When I described a dagger, of plug bayonet 'form', it was noting that by appearance, it vestigially recalled the origins of the hilt design, and while NOT a plug bayonet in actuality, it remained associated in this sense. I rest my case On that note, Wayne, this is an OUTSTANDING example of this weapon type! especially witb the brass insert still in the aperture.