my Albacete Dagger

fernando · 5th November 2022, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I rest my case

...

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.

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Jim McDougall · 5th November 2022, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.

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Oh no! They look like plug bayonets!!!
First I find out the truth about Santa Claus.....NOW I find there is no such thing as an Albacete plug bayonet!!!

fernando · 5th November 2022, 07:47 PM

Dear Jim, it's all about semantics. Portuguese Baioneta de caça = Spanish Bayoneta de caza = English Hunting bayonet. or ... Spanish Bayoneta de taco = English Plug bayonet (taco is Spanish for plug). All these names point to the same thing

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Jim McDougall · 5th November 2022, 10:46 PM

Fernando, thank you for your patience in explaining this dilemma in such detail. Semantics indeed play an important part in all of this, and it is amazing to see the literal translation of 'taco' from Spanish =plug.
Naturally as someone who grew up in California with Mexican people, and living now in Texas, the word 'taco' instantly means the fried folded over tortilla with meat and cheese.......a food favorite

Apparently the word itself has numerous meanings in various contexts.

I am adding the pages from Roger Evans' book, and the first two pages of the 'plug bayonets chapter'. It seems that there are of course differences between the peasant knives which in certain degree recall plug bayonet form, but the 'spindle form' as shown by Udo, on p.158 it is noted "..there is no evidence that such knives were ever intended for use as plug bayonets".

This would be in accord with your observation that the Albacete daggers have' nothing to do with plug bayonets'.

However, on this page, Evans notes that TRUE PLUG BAYONETS were made in quantity for hunters by the cutlery trade in Albacete. Production likely began in the 18th century, but peaked in the 1860s and 70s.

It is unclear why these were termed plug bayonets if they were actually daggers, though the spindle grip type obviously could not be used in a gun barrel as Udo has noted. While the Spanish held to their smooth bore miguelet lock guns well through the 19th century, whether they actually used the plug bayonets in original form inserted in the barrel seems unlikely.

fernando · 6th November 2022, 09:55 AM

Mind you Jim, the subject of hunting bayonets does not run out with the plug system. There was also the socket system, just like military bayonets were. You can find these with princely decorations. I wonder whether this system in hunting bayonets came to life before the plug one, or ran at same time.
From one of my Portuguese books, here are two examples made in France by the end of XVIII century.

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Jim McDougall · 6th November 2022, 10:05 AM

That is truly interesting Fernando. I had no idea the bayonet had any part in the hunt, though obviously the hunting sword or knife was a necessary implement. From my understanding of the development of the bayonet, the plug was the initial manner of attaching, however the socket developed later obviously to not impair firing of the gun.

fernando · 6th November 2022, 11:00 AM

In a way, yes; but not forgeting that hunting and military (and countries) had distinct paths when dealing with such problematic.
In any case, even the military only mount the bayonet when instructed to expressly atack with it... and the sae goes for hunters in their context ...if i am not talking nonsense.

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5th November 2022, 10:46 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	Fernando, thank you for your patience in explaining this dilemma in such detail. Semantics indeed play an important part in all of this, and it is amazing to see the literal translation of 'taco' from Spanish =plug. Naturally as someone who grew up in California with Mexican people, and living now in Texas, the word 'taco' instantly means the fried folded over tortilla with meat and cheese.......a food favorite Apparently the word itself has numerous meanings in various contexts. I am adding the pages from Roger Evans' book, and the first two pages of the 'plug bayonets chapter'. It seems that there are of course differences between the peasant knives which in certain degree recall plug bayonet form, but the 'spindle form' as shown by Udo, on p.158 it is noted "..there is no evidence that such knives were ever intended for use as plug bayonets". This would be in accord with your observation that the Albacete daggers have' nothing to do with plug bayonets'. However, on this page, Evans notes that TRUE PLUG BAYONETS were made in quantity for hunters by the cutlery trade in Albacete. Production likely began in the 18th century, but peaked in the 1860s and 70s. It is unclear why these were termed plug bayonets if they were actually daggers, though the spindle grip type obviously could not be used in a gun barrel as Udo has noted. While the Spanish held to their smooth bore miguelet lock guns well through the 19th century, whether they actually used the plug bayonets in original form inserted in the barrel seems unlikely. Attached Images

6th November 2022, 09:55 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Mind you Jim, the subject of hunting bayonets does not run out with the plug system. There was also the socket system, just like military bayonets were. You can find these with princely decorations. I wonder whether this system in hunting bayonets came to life before the plug one, or ran at same time. From one of my Portuguese books, here are two examples made in France by the end of XVIII century. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 6th November 2022 at 10:36 AM.

6th November 2022, 11:00 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In a way, yes; but not forgeting that hunting and military (and countries) had distinct paths when dealing with such problematic. In any case, even the military only mount the bayonet when instructed to expressly atack with it... and the sae goes for hunters in their context ...if i am not talking nonsense. . Last edited by fernando; 6th November 2022 at 11:12 AM.

5th November 2022, 07:47 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dear Jim, it's all about semantics. Portuguese Baioneta de caça = Spanish Bayoneta de caza = English Hunting bayonet. or ... Spanish Bayoneta de taco = English Plug bayonet (taco is Spanish for plug). All these names point to the same thing .

6th November 2022, 10:05 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	That is truly interesting Fernando. I had no idea the bayonet had any part in the hunt, though obviously the hunting sword or knife was a necessary implement. From my understanding of the development of the bayonet, the plug was the initial manner of attaching, however the socket developed later obviously to not impair firing of the gun.