my Albacete Dagger

[kronckew]

Well, it arrived a few minutes ago. It's solid, nothing missing, a bit of red rust, a few small pits. 4 inch grip, 7.25 in. blade, fairly sharp, scrubbed off the red rust & oiled it. Will look for a scabbard to store it in, hopefully like the ones shown above.


I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'.


Last night I saw a firearms video where a man fired a musket, then drew and inserted his plug bayonet to counter a charge from 15 yards by an opponent. or at least tried, the opponent reached him before he could get it in the muzzle. The socket bayonet was developed fairly quickly after to enable firing with the bayonet attached. They also did a VR simulation of a WW1 trench where the real human was confronted by a charging German with just a rifle and then with one with his bayonet attached. They measured stress and fright levels. seems, like the Brits always believed, the bayonet charge scared more and broke the enemy more than just firing muskets.


I've read about a Sultan from one of the independent states in SEA that had a few hundred armed rebels attacking his capital. He called out his Gurkha bodyguard with their rifles. The rebels kept attacking. The Gurkhas were ordered to draw Khukuris, as they closed, the rebels reconsidered and ran away. End of rebellion. People will charge gun, but fear edged weapons, even tho you are more likel;y to survive a bayonet (or khukuri) than a bullet.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'...

Those had to be the exact size of the barrel bore. One serious issue is that they eventually got stuck and hard to dismount.
I guess the real wobbling hardly occurred with 'current' plug bayonets, assuming the wooden grip has a slowly progressive taper ending with the usual 'bulb'.
Speaking of which, wobling is the reason why the Albacete dagger like yours can not be confused with a plug bayonet. But of course you now that; yet some don't.


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[kronckew]

Fernando: exactly! Nice drawing!

[fernando]

... And how plug bayonets did their job at mounting on end XVIII and beg. XIX century Spanish hunting muskets.


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[David R]

Well, seeing as we have a nice thread going here I will add in my example. No blade piercing, and the grip panelled with brass and "ivory" glued with pitch or resin to the wooden core. Some damage to the grip panels but mainly sound.
The scabbard looks to be very thin wood strips, possibly card, covered in cotton velvet and very thin brass mounts.

[Jim McDougall]

It is a great thread, and these DAGGERS bring discussed are intriguing as they are vestigially recalling the form of much earlier PLUG BAYONETS with the distinctive hilt form, which as well explained by Fernando were designed to fit into the barrel of guns.

Most interesting is that in Spain, notably many examples from Albacete, continued being produced well into the 19th century, despite the fact that rifled gun barrels could no longer accept the hilts into them. The reason for this continued holding to the 'plug bayonet' form of the hilts, even though they were of course used as knives for hunting was the typical Spanish penchant for maintaining traditional styles. This was much the same as the continued use of the cup hilt rapier long after it was considered obsolete with the advent of the small sword.

The traditional presence of vestigial features in weaponry is well known in many cases, with one prime example being the pas d'ane in the small sword which served as a finger guard and securing loop in early small swords. By the end of the 18th century these became smaller but still present though no longer used, but retained as part of the traditional structure of these hilts.

If I may use another analogy beyond weaponry, in the US automotive design has been a key aspect culturally, particularly in the earlier years as design innovation was creative and artistic. Many autos of the 30s and later had features imitating aerodynamic designs and often copied notable elements from airplanes.
Some of the sportier cars had exhaust ports extending out of the hood area imitating those on some fighter planes. In the late 40s, early 1950s, the Buick automobile had a hood design with several 'ports' simply as decorative features, recalling those exhaust ports, but not of course, functional.

These 'vestigial' features, though not at all functional, clearly recalled the earlier auto designs, and by that virtue, the use of aircraft design and structural features in the auto design traditions in earlier years.

When I described a dagger, of plug bayonet 'form', it was noting that by appearance, it vestigially recalled the origins of the hilt design, and while NOT a plug bayonet in actuality, it remained associated in this sense.

I rest my case
On that note, Wayne, this is an OUTSTANDING example of this weapon type! especially witb the brass insert still in the aperture.

[corrado26]

Here some pieces of my former collection of Albacete daggers. They are now back in Spain again. No one would have the idea that the lantern type or the one with the thick grip could be used as a plug bayonet.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I rest my case ...

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.


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