my Albacete Dagger

[Interested Party]

I don't know how germane this is to the design we are discussing, or how anatomically true the explanation is, but I thought it should be mentioned. This is from a discussion of a cut out on a Philipine blade from tanaruz's thread visayan kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28209 post #2 in the Ethnographic forum ".....update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.' "

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I don't know how germane this is to the design we are discussing, or how anatomically true the explanation is, but I thought it should be mentioned. This is from a discussion of a cut out on a Philipine blade from tanaruz's thread visayan kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28209 post #2 in the Ethnographic forum ".....update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.' "

That is most interesting! and I think very much worth adding here, and Richard Burton in his "Book of the Sword" (1884,p.136)noted, regarded among methods of lightening the blade,:
"...a favorite fashion in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, the golden age of the sword, was to break the continuity by open work, which allowed free play to the ornamenters hand. It was also supposed to render the wound more dangerous by admitting the air".

These conventions and notions were conveyed into the Philippine archipelago by the Spaniards, who probably brought these from well traveled European weapons 'lore'. It is remarkable how much cross diffusion there was between the European and ethnographic weapons elements in the times of discovery and colonial occupation.
Most of these kinds of suggestions including the idea of poison in blades (possibly from the poison arrow concept?) are not particularly viable, but interesting just the same.

[fernando]

Jim, skip the name game for now. In Albacete they made all kinds of knives, even sissors, for centuries. But we all know that the version which practically always comes around, like Wayne's example, is the one with a spindle shaped hilt, just like shown in page 158 of RDC EVANS work, as you mention. And is also the one that beginners and ignorant or fraudulent dealers sell as plug bayonets.

If Wayne doesn't mind, a couple pictures of some Albacete variaties.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, skip the name game for now. In Albacete they made all kinds of knives, even sissors, for centuries. But we all know that the version which practically always comes around, like Wayne's example, is the one with a spindle shaped hilt, just like shown in page 158 of RDC EVANS work, as you mention. And is also the one that beginners and ignorant or fraudulent dealers sell as plug bayonets.

If Wayne doesn't mind, a couple pictures of some Albacete variaties.


.

It was not just Albacete, there were many locations which made the 'plug bayonet' form of daggers, which as noted were used as hunting knives well through the 19th c. As with Albacete, there were variations among most, but the plug bayonet style hilt largely prevailed in a traditional sense.
While the term may have been inaccurate, as obviously their original purpose inserted in gun barrels was no longer viable, and the image vestigial, it was the term that aligned these with plug bayonets, which was why I added 'of plug bayonet FORM'.

[kronckew]

Well, it arrived a few minutes ago. It's solid, nothing missing, a bit of red rust, a few small pits. 4 inch grip, 7.25 in. blade, fairly sharp, scrubbed off the red rust & oiled it. Will look for a scabbard to store it in, hopefully like the ones shown above.


I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'.


Last night I saw a firearms video where a man fired a musket, then drew and inserted his plug bayonet to counter a charge from 15 yards by an opponent. or at least tried, the opponent reached him before he could get it in the muzzle. The socket bayonet was developed fairly quickly after to enable firing with the bayonet attached. They also did a VR simulation of a WW1 trench where the real human was confronted by a charging German with just a rifle and then with one with his bayonet attached. They measured stress and fright levels. seems, like the Brits always believed, the bayonet charge scared more and broke the enemy more than just firing muskets.


I've read about a Sultan from one of the independent states in SEA that had a few hundred armed rebels attacking his capital. He called out his Gurkha bodyguard with their rifles. The rebels kept attacking. The Gurkhas were ordered to draw Khukuris, as they closed, the rebels reconsidered and ran away. End of rebellion. People will charge gun, but fear edged weapons, even tho you are more likel;y to survive a bayonet (or khukuri) than a bullet.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'...

Those had to be the exact size of the barrel bore. One serious issue is that they eventually got stuck and hard to dismount.
I guess the real wobbling hardly occurred with 'current' plug bayonets, assuming the wooden grip has a slowly progressive taper ending with the usual 'bulb'.
Speaking of which, wobling is the reason why the Albacete dagger like yours can not be confused with a plug bayonet. But of course you now that; yet some don't.


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[kronckew]

Fernando: exactly! Nice drawing!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It was not just Albacete, there were many locations which made the 'plug bayonet' form of daggers...

Of course Jim; only that what we are discussing is the Albacete cuttlery.