What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures?

Gustav · 30th October 2009, 11:54 PM

Dear All,

some citations from "Court arts from Indonesia":

In extended analyses of the nature of power, which pervades both the material and nonmaterial world in Indonesian belief, one aspect emerges clearly: power is paradoxical. The more it is exercised or needs to be demonstrated, the less effective it is; perceptibility diminishes its substance, knowledge of it implies control. Anderson's much-quoted definition is so apt that it bears repetition:

"Power exists, independent of its possible users. It is not a theoretical postulate but an existential reality. Power is that intangible, mysterious and divine energy which animates the universe... In Javanese traditional thinking there is no sharp division between organic and inorganic matter, for everything is sustained by the same inwisible power. This conception of the entire cosmos being suffused by formless, constantly creative energy provides the basic link between the "animism" of the Javanese willages and the high metaphysical pantheism of the urban centers"
(page 84)

The invincibility of and unquestionable rights to absolute royal power, familiar to students of the theory of the divine right of kings in the west, achieve their ultimate fulfillment in WAHYU. This sign of supernatural power was usually manifested by a glowing light and left the body on death. In some cases a princess with a "flaming womb" was perceiwed as the mother of kings; Ken Angrok, first king of Singasari (1222-27), was adwised to marry Ken Dedes because her flaming womb guaranteed a line of monarchs. In a second case, tailored to legitimize the power of the Dutch, a princess with a flaming womb was sold to a Dutchman whose descendents thereby acquired legitimacy in Java. In a different version, the WAHYU of Amangkurat II (1677-1703) was said at his death to have taken the form of a grain of light on his penis. Perceived and drawn in by his nephew Prince Puger, manifestation of the WAHYU and its posession eventually confirmed Puger as Pakubuwono I (1705-19) over the direct claims of his cousin, Amangkurat III (1703-05).

(page 88)

What interests me in this subject is, were it possible to see Keris as a form of a body?, which bears a power, I mean also possibly a human body?

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2009, 01:11 AM

Yes, exactly Gustav, and this is the reason why the designated inheritor of a power wants to be present at the death of the person whose place he will take, so that the wahyu can go directly to him, and not be confused into going elsewhere. The wahyu is the sign, not the actual power that the sign indicates.

As I have already stated, I have not heard of the use of the concept of wahyu in association with keris.

The keris is not a form of a body.

Man is created by God, but the keris is created by man.

Those who believe in the powers that flow from a keris can hold the belief that those powers flow from various esoteric sources, but the keris is the focus of the powers and those powers cannot exist except in the presence of the suitable human agent.

The pusaka keris of a Balinese kin group has a relationship to people within that group, and to one person within that group in particular, but it cannot have that relationship to one who is not a member of the group.

For some people a particular keris may possess a certain isi, but for others the isi does not exist.

For some people a particular tuah may be an effective talisman, for other people it may have no effect, or worse, be a negative influence.

The concept of wahyu simply does not fit within the keris belief system.

mohd · 31st October 2009, 02:44 PM

As a Malay, it really confused me when the term wahyu is discussed in relation to Keris! Actually only isi and tuah which are relevance to keris belief system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For some people a particular keris may possess a certain isi, but for others the isi does not exist.

For some people a particular tuah may be an effective talisman, for other people it may have no effect, or worse, be a negative influence.

Yes! Isi keris here means a sort of a spiritual value or a spiritual power of the keris as per regarded by a person or a group of persons related to that particular keris. While tuah keris means more like a lucky charm again as per regarded by a person or a group of persons related to that particular keris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The concept of wahyu simply does not fit within the keris belief system.

Again yes! Wahyu or wahy or wahi in Malay is originated from Arabic word and it is specifically carry a strict meaning in accordance to the Islamic Syriah. Here is the correct meaning of wahyu or wahy or wahi which is generally understand by Malay. In other words the term wahyu or wahy or wahi actually has nothing to do with keris at all.

Hope my explanations helps.

Mohd.

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2009, 08:08 PM

Thanks for the link. Mohd.

I had suspected that wahyu might have come from Arabic, as it does not seem to appear in any form in Old Javanese. Knowing the original meaning and application is enlightening.

In fact, if we plough through enough dictionaries one of the meanings given to wahyu is "revelation".

However, the way in which I have learnt to use it, and heard it used, in Jawa is as an indicator from God of the designated authority of a person. Usually you will hear it in association with a ruler, but I have also heard it used in association with people of lesser authority.

Going back a very long time I misunderstood this word. I thought that it referred to the actual power itself, and although I had it explained to me, at that time my understanding of the Javanese thought process was inadequate to allow me to understand that it did not refer to power, but was an indicator of where the power should rest.

30th October 2009, 11:54 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Dear All, some citations from "Court arts from Indonesia": In extended analyses of the nature of power, which pervades both the material and nonmaterial world in Indonesian belief, one aspect emerges clearly: power is paradoxical. The more it is exercised or needs to be demonstrated, the less effective it is; perceptibility diminishes its substance, knowledge of it implies control. Anderson's much-quoted definition is so apt that it bears repetition: "Power exists, independent of its possible users. It is not a theoretical postulate but an existential reality. Power is that intangible, mysterious and divine energy which animates the universe... In Javanese traditional thinking there is no sharp division between organic and inorganic matter, for everything is sustained by the same inwisible power. This conception of the entire cosmos being suffused by formless, constantly creative energy provides the basic link between the "animism" of the Javanese willages and the high metaphysical pantheism of the urban centers" (page 84) The invincibility of and unquestionable rights to absolute royal power, familiar to students of the theory of the divine right of kings in the west, achieve their ultimate fulfillment in WAHYU. This sign of supernatural power was usually manifested by a glowing light and left the body on death. In some cases a princess with a "flaming womb" was perceiwed as the mother of kings; Ken Angrok, first king of Singasari (1222-27), was adwised to marry Ken Dedes because her flaming womb guaranteed a line of monarchs. In a second case, tailored to legitimize the power of the Dutch, a princess with a flaming womb was sold to a Dutchman whose descendents thereby acquired legitimacy in Java. In a different version, the WAHYU of Amangkurat II (1677-1703) was said at his death to have taken the form of a grain of light on his penis. Perceived and drawn in by his nephew Prince Puger, manifestation of the WAHYU and its posession eventually confirmed Puger as Pakubuwono I (1705-19) over the direct claims of his cousin, Amangkurat III (1703-05). (page 88) What interests me in this subject is, were it possible to see Keris as a form of a body?, which bears a power, I mean also possibly a human body?

31st October 2009, 01:11 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, exactly Gustav, and this is the reason why the designated inheritor of a power wants to be present at the death of the person whose place he will take, so that the wahyu can go directly to him, and not be confused into going elsewhere. The wahyu is the sign, not the actual power that the sign indicates. As I have already stated, I have not heard of the use of the concept of wahyu in association with keris. The keris is not a form of a body. Man is created by God, but the keris is created by man. Those who believe in the powers that flow from a keris can hold the belief that those powers flow from various esoteric sources, but the keris is the focus of the powers and those powers cannot exist except in the presence of the suitable human agent. The pusaka keris of a Balinese kin group has a relationship to people within that group, and to one person within that group in particular, but it cannot have that relationship to one who is not a member of the group. For some people a particular keris may possess a certain isi, but for others the isi does not exist. For some people a particular tuah may be an effective talisman, for other people it may have no effect, or worse, be a negative influence. The concept of wahyu simply does not fit within the keris belief system.

31st October 2009, 08:08 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for the link. Mohd. I had suspected that wahyu might have come from Arabic, as it does not seem to appear in any form in Old Javanese. Knowing the original meaning and application is enlightening. In fact, if we plough through enough dictionaries one of the meanings given to wahyu is "revelation". However, the way in which I have learnt to use it, and heard it used, in Jawa is as an indicator from God of the designated authority of a person. Usually you will hear it in association with a ruler, but I have also heard it used in association with people of lesser authority. Going back a very long time I misunderstood this word. I thought that it referred to the actual power itself, and although I had it explained to me, at that time my understanding of the Javanese thought process was inadequate to allow me to understand that it did not refer to power, but was an indicator of where the power should rest.