What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures?

kronckew · 28th October 2009, 07:17 PM

even us poor westerners have the tradition of magical weapons, special swords like excaliber, or swords forged by elves and dwarves with mystical powers. bronze swords, (cast in stone moulds - the origin of the 'sword in the stone'?) were ritually 'killed', broken or bent, as a sacrifice to the gods, and tossed into rivers and bogs...

fearn · 29th October 2009, 01:08 AM

For those of us geeks who grew up with heroic fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons, magic swords have intelligence an ego, and/or a mission are nothing new. Thinking about it, I wonder where those ideas came from?

Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu.

I'd also point out a rather odd book The Sword of Heaven (Amazon Link), which is the reportedly true story of a shinto priest's (successful?) attempt to save the world using a magic sword. Interesting story, whether you're a true believer or not. If this did happen, I hope that collectors leave the sword where it is!

Best,

F

Rick · 29th October 2009, 03:50 AM

It wasn't Frodo ?!?!

fearn · 29th October 2009, 05:44 AM

Read the book, Rick.

David · 30th October 2009, 02:19 PM

OK, i guess a magic sword must have been involved here somewhere because i could have sworn this was first posted in the keris forum, but i see no sign of it being moved from there to hear. Well if it has always been here ignore my last post.

Rick · 30th October 2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

OK, i guess a magic sword must have been involved here somewhere because i could have sworn this was first posted in the keris forum, but i see no sign of it being moved from there to hear. Well if it has always been here ignore my last post.

Heh, heh, heh ...

Magic fingers .

A question :
What is the difference in keris culture between Isi and Wahyu ?
Fill me in .

A. G. Maisey · 30th October 2009, 10:59 PM

Please forgive me Silkreeler, but I have read your initial post a number of times, and what you are saying about wahyu is very difficult for me to understand within the context of the keris.

In fact, I cannot recall ever having heard the word, wahyu , or the concept that is represented by wahyu, being associated with the keris.My understanding of the word and concept of "wahyu" is that it is a sign from heaven, most often in the form of a falling star, that the person indicated by this falling star is intended for high office. It is most frequently associated with the appointment of a village head, or with the taking of power by a new king.

Wahyu is a sign from heaven.

In Indonesian, as distinct from Javanese, wahyu has more of the meaning of a devine revelation, sometimes in the form of a vision.

The esoteric essences that are most usually associated with the keris are "isi" and "tuah".

These are not the same, or even similar.

The word "isi" means "contents".

When we speak of the isi of a keris we are referring to that essence that we believe is contained within the keris, it might be a (spiritual) tiger or some other animal, or it might be some spiritual being, either good or evil.

The word "tuah" has several associated meanings, but in the context of the keris the applicable meaning is probably best satisfied by "magic power". As an example, the tuah of the pamor batu lapak is believed to be that the owner of a keris with this pamor will accumulate many beautiful women and will live in a peaceful home. Truly magic power! Many beautiful women all living peacefully with one man as lord? Yeah---right!

So essentially isi applies to one specific individual keris. It might be the ugliest, most degraded and deformed keris of all time, but it could have as an isi an incredibly powerful spiritual force.

On the other hand, tuah is associated with some identifiable physical feature, very often a pamor motif, and this physical feature bestows good luck of a certain kind, because of the magic power associated with it.

But then there is the nature of the keris as pusaka.

The nature of the keris as pusaka is that it performs the role of binding all previous rightful custodians of that keris to the current custodian.It also binds the current custodian to all members of the current custodian's kin group. So it is a two dimensional binding force:- binding the past with the present and all applicable beings within the present.

In this context of keris as pusaka, the keris has become a materialisation of the Naga Basuki flowing through the cosmos and binding all dimensions as one.

For those who contribute to this belief system, this means that the current holder can call upon assistance of past custodians to help overcome a difficulty that is besetting current members of the kin group. This was the thought process of the ruler of Klungkung when he faced Dutch forces with only his pusaka keris, expecting the powers of the ancestors to obliterate the Dutch.

In the present day, where one banjar borrows a pusaka keris, it will be found that the members of both banjars will be associated with the same kin group.Thus, there is no tranfer of any magic power, but only a transfer of focus of the binding power of the Naga that links the new (borrowing) holder of the pusaka with the previous custodians, and whatever assistance these previous custodians may be able to render.

The concepts of tuah, isi, and pusaka are in no way related.

Silkreeler, I would very much like to read these articles that have provided you with the information that generated your initial post.

Are these articles available on line?

If not, can you tell us who wrote them, where were they published, and what is the writer's background?

David · 30th October 2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu.

Sorry Fearn, but these words don't seem to be very good or even rough translations of tghe purpose and intent of Wahyu.

28th October 2009, 07:17 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	even us poor westerners have the tradition of magical weapons, special swords like excaliber, or swords forged by elves and dwarves with mystical powers. bronze swords, (cast in stone moulds - the origin of the 'sword in the stone'?) were ritually 'killed', broken or bent, as a sacrifice to the gods, and tossed into rivers and bogs...

29th October 2009, 01:08 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	For those of us geeks who grew up with heroic fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons, magic swords have intelligence an ego, and/or a mission are nothing new. Thinking about it, I wonder where those ideas came from? Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu. I'd also point out a rather odd book The Sword of Heaven (Amazon Link), which is the reportedly true story of a shinto priest's (successful?) attempt to save the world using a magic sword. Interesting story, whether you're a true believer or not. If this did happen, I hope that collectors leave the sword where it is! Best, F

29th October 2009, 03:50 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	It wasn't Frodo ?!?!

29th October 2009, 05:44 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Read the book, Rick.

30th October 2009, 02:19 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	OK, i guess a magic sword must have been involved here somewhere because i could have sworn this was first posted in the keris forum, but i see no sign of it being moved from there to hear. Well if it has always been here ignore my last post.

30th October 2009, 10:59 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Please forgive me Silkreeler, but I have read your initial post a number of times, and what you are saying about wahyu is very difficult for me to understand within the context of the keris. In fact, I cannot recall ever having heard the word, wahyu , or the concept that is represented by wahyu, being associated with the keris.My understanding of the word and concept of "wahyu" is that it is a sign from heaven, most often in the form of a falling star, that the person indicated by this falling star is intended for high office. It is most frequently associated with the appointment of a village head, or with the taking of power by a new king. Wahyu is a sign from heaven. In Indonesian, as distinct from Javanese, wahyu has more of the meaning of a devine revelation, sometimes in the form of a vision. The esoteric essences that are most usually associated with the keris are "isi" and "tuah". These are not the same, or even similar. The word "isi" means "contents". When we speak of the isi of a keris we are referring to that essence that we believe is contained within the keris, it might be a (spiritual) tiger or some other animal, or it might be some spiritual being, either good or evil. The word "tuah" has several associated meanings, but in the context of the keris the applicable meaning is probably best satisfied by "magic power". As an example, the tuah of the pamor batu lapak is believed to be that the owner of a keris with this pamor will accumulate many beautiful women and will live in a peaceful home. Truly magic power! Many beautiful women all living peacefully with one man as lord? Yeah---right! So essentially isi applies to one specific individual keris. It might be the ugliest, most degraded and deformed keris of all time, but it could have as an isi an incredibly powerful spiritual force. On the other hand, tuah is associated with some identifiable physical feature, very often a pamor motif, and this physical feature bestows good luck of a certain kind, because of the magic power associated with it. But then there is the nature of the keris as pusaka. The nature of the keris as pusaka is that it performs the role of binding all previous rightful custodians of that keris to the current custodian.It also binds the current custodian to all members of the current custodian's kin group. So it is a two dimensional binding force:- binding the past with the present and all applicable beings within the present. In this context of keris as pusaka, the keris has become a materialisation of the Naga Basuki flowing through the cosmos and binding all dimensions as one. For those who contribute to this belief system, this means that the current holder can call upon assistance of past custodians to help overcome a difficulty that is besetting current members of the kin group. This was the thought process of the ruler of Klungkung when he faced Dutch forces with only his pusaka keris, expecting the powers of the ancestors to obliterate the Dutch. In the present day, where one banjar borrows a pusaka keris, it will be found that the members of both banjars will be associated with the same kin group.Thus, there is no tranfer of any magic power, but only a transfer of focus of the binding power of the Naga that links the new (borrowing) holder of the pusaka with the previous custodians, and whatever assistance these previous custodians may be able to render. The concepts of tuah, isi, and pusaka are in no way related. Silkreeler, I would very much like to read these articles that have provided you with the information that generated your initial post. Are these articles available on line? If not, can you tell us who wrote them, where were they published, and what is the writer's background?