What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures?

David · 4th November 2009, 04:27 AM

I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction.
BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

mohd · 4th November 2009, 11:36 AM

The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari

Mohd.

fearn · 4th November 2009, 05:22 PM

Hi David,

Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them?

There's an interesting dichotomy that I think the keris terminology has caught: there are magical swords that can do things normal blades cannot do. This is similar to the isi concept (If I understand tuah, it's more of a categorical property than an individual one). This is Excalibur, which was given by, and returned to, the Lady in the Lake.

Then there's the pusaka concept, which is a keris that (as I understand it, and leaving out the spiritual dimension) legitimizes power and relationships. This is more of the Sword in the Stone, which was thrust into the stone by Arthur's father, as a means for recognizing his rightful heir after his death. The concepts are not identical, but then, the concept of pusaka being tied into a weapon is not so common in European folklore, I think.

A. G. Maisey · 5th November 2009, 03:20 AM

The keris as pusaka cannot be divorced from its spiritual element.

The keris as pusaka does not only legitimise power or a relationship, and it need not necessarily do either.

The essential element of the keris as pusaka is its binding power.

David · 5th November 2009, 05:42 AM

Once again, Arthurian legend was pieced together from the writings of various medieval romantic writers weaving their tales many centuries after the historical Arthur may have lived. If the question here is are there similar cultural beliefs to those held in Indonesia in regards to the keris i think it is a hard stretch to relate these stories of the sword in the stone or Excalibur to the living, albiet fading, cultural traditions of the keris which are real, not legendary. I am speaking in regards to the beliefs of tuah and isi and the practice of passing down keris as pusaka to serve as a binding element to ones relations. These traditions were real and pervasive within this culture for centuries. Nothing like this existed in any European culture as far as i know, even if there was a weapon here or there that was deemed special or powerful.

David · 5th November 2009, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them?

Well Disney didn't help, but i think it was Malory in his Le Morte d'Arthur.

josh stout · 12th November 2009, 05:51 PM

This is an interesting discussion. I would like to contribute some stories I have heard about swords and powers/spirits from the Chinese Indonesian community.

My understanding of traditional Chinese sword culture is that a sword is potentially unlucky, due to the inherent power it represents. As a sword is used, its power increases, until some would not be willing to have an antique in their house because the power in it is too great and bad things could happen.

Used weapons in Tibetan culture are kept in an inner sanctuary to be used by guardian spirits in the fight against evil and for protecting the temple. I suspect this also places their power in a safe place to be used for good not evil.

In Chinese Indonesian culture the links to animistic practices are a bit stronger. When a new sword is acquired it must be cleaned, and then put on an alter to attract a good spirit. One offers flowers and incense to encourage a good spirit, or meat to encourage a powerful and potentially more dangerous spirit. Letting people of good will handle a sword without feelings of jealousy also encourages a good spirit. I suspect this is closely aligned with the concept of "isi" because there does not seem to be a direct connection between the quality of a blade and the spirit that can inhabit it. If the sword is a personal weapon, or a family heirloom, it is kept near the alter, usually to one side, but is not usually directly prayed to. I think keeping it near the alter makes it safer.

Particularly interesting is the idea that a sword would not necessarily have a spirit, but that it can acquire one. The spirit can be invited into a sword and change over time according to use and ritual practices.

"Temple swords" and "alter swords" are those specifically to be used in ritual practices and are not to be confused with weapons. They usually have magical incantations and or symbols on them and it is considered bad luck to practice sword dances or other weapon oriented activities with them. There is a practical side to this because the temple swords are often of low quality and may not even be steel, so practicing with them could indeed be dangerous. Nevertheless, once again we can see that the quality of a sword and the power of a spirit within it are not necessarily connected.

In Chinese culture swords should always be respected, never placed on the ground, and not neglected. The people I know from Indonesia sometimes say to clean them every full moon. On the other hand, swords are dangerous, potentially bad luck, and not revered as objects of worship. This often leads to the situation where a sword is placed high up and ignored as it slowly rusts in the high humidity.
Josh

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2009, 09:42 PM

In Jawa people who identify themselves as Chinese , and who are identified by others as being a part of the Chinese community have absorbed a very large part of Javanese culture, which they tend to identify not as Javanese culture, but as their own culture. This applies to native born Javanese Chinese, most particularly to those who come from a family that has been in Jawa for a lengthy period of time.

Yes, some elements of original Chinese culture are in evidence, but there are beliefs and practices that are not Chinese, but rather Javanese, that the Chinese-Javanese ( and I guess, the Chinese-Indonesian) person will claim to be a part of Chinese culture that can be positively identified as being borrowed from Javanese or some other local culture ( in the case of Chinese -Indonesian).

This particularly applies to those Chinese communities that are located in the old seats of Javanese power, such as Surakarta and Jogjakarta. In these places it is often quite difficult to determine exactly where Javanese culture stops and Chinese culture starts. For example , the Chinese businessman and art connoisseur, Go Tik Swan, rose to an elevated position in the Karaton Surakarta with the designation of Panembahan Harjonegoro. In these old Karaton cities the Chinese and Javanese communities are so interwoven that it is difficult to view them as separate entities, rather it is perhaps easier to view them as slightly different threads of the same culture.

During the upheavals of the 1960's, many Chinese people fled from other locations in Jawa, notably in East Jawa, to Central Jawa, because they had the perception that this was a safer environment for them. This does not mean that there is no anti-Chinese feeling in these Central Javanese locations. Of course there is. The burnings, riots and rapes of only a few years ago are ample evidence of this. However, upon analysis this recent violence can perhaps be identified as situational violence directed at people identified as Chinese, rather than as a culturally based violence.

In Jawa it is not unusual to find people living and accepted as Javanese, who are in fact of Chinese descent and who at a different period in their lives had lived as members of a Chinese community.

In respect of weaponry, we should be careful not to accept a practice noted in an individual family, or a group of families, as being a general practice that can be applied across an entire community upon the basis of a cultural division that is often quite difficult to identify.

4th November 2009, 04:27 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction. BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

4th November 2009, 11:36 AM	#2
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari Mohd.

4th November 2009, 05:22 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them? There's an interesting dichotomy that I think the keris terminology has caught: there are magical swords that can do things normal blades cannot do. This is similar to the isi concept (If I understand tuah, it's more of a categorical property than an individual one). This is Excalibur, which was given by, and returned to, the Lady in the Lake. Then there's the pusaka concept, which is a keris that (as I understand it, and leaving out the spiritual dimension) legitimizes power and relationships. This is more of the Sword in the Stone, which was thrust into the stone by Arthur's father, as a means for recognizing his rightful heir after his death. The concepts are not identical, but then, the concept of pusaka being tied into a weapon is not so common in European folklore, I think.

5th November 2009, 03:20 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The keris as pusaka cannot be divorced from its spiritual element. The keris as pusaka does not only legitimise power or a relationship, and it need not necessarily do either. The essential element of the keris as pusaka is its binding power.

5th November 2009, 05:42 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Once again, Arthurian legend was pieced together from the writings of various medieval romantic writers weaving their tales many centuries after the historical Arthur may have lived. If the question here is are there similar cultural beliefs to those held in Indonesia in regards to the keris i think it is a hard stretch to relate these stories of the sword in the stone or Excalibur to the living, albiet fading, cultural traditions of the keris which are real, not legendary. I am speaking in regards to the beliefs of tuah and isi and the practice of passing down keris as pusaka to serve as a binding element to ones relations. These traditions were real and pervasive within this culture for centuries. Nothing like this existed in any European culture as far as i know, even if there was a weapon here or there that was deemed special or powerful.

12th November 2009, 05:51 PM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	This is an interesting discussion. I would like to contribute some stories I have heard about swords and powers/spirits from the Chinese Indonesian community. My understanding of traditional Chinese sword culture is that a sword is potentially unlucky, due to the inherent power it represents. As a sword is used, its power increases, until some would not be willing to have an antique in their house because the power in it is too great and bad things could happen. Used weapons in Tibetan culture are kept in an inner sanctuary to be used by guardian spirits in the fight against evil and for protecting the temple. I suspect this also places their power in a safe place to be used for good not evil. In Chinese Indonesian culture the links to animistic practices are a bit stronger. When a new sword is acquired it must be cleaned, and then put on an alter to attract a good spirit. One offers flowers and incense to encourage a good spirit, or meat to encourage a powerful and potentially more dangerous spirit. Letting people of good will handle a sword without feelings of jealousy also encourages a good spirit. I suspect this is closely aligned with the concept of "isi" because there does not seem to be a direct connection between the quality of a blade and the spirit that can inhabit it. If the sword is a personal weapon, or a family heirloom, it is kept near the alter, usually to one side, but is not usually directly prayed to. I think keeping it near the alter makes it safer. Particularly interesting is the idea that a sword would not necessarily have a spirit, but that it can acquire one. The spirit can be invited into a sword and change over time according to use and ritual practices. "Temple swords" and "alter swords" are those specifically to be used in ritual practices and are not to be confused with weapons. They usually have magical incantations and or symbols on them and it is considered bad luck to practice sword dances or other weapon oriented activities with them. There is a practical side to this because the temple swords are often of low quality and may not even be steel, so practicing with them could indeed be dangerous. Nevertheless, once again we can see that the quality of a sword and the power of a spirit within it are not necessarily connected. In Chinese culture swords should always be respected, never placed on the ground, and not neglected. The people I know from Indonesia sometimes say to clean them every full moon. On the other hand, swords are dangerous, potentially bad luck, and not revered as objects of worship. This often leads to the situation where a sword is placed high up and ignored as it slowly rusts in the high humidity. Josh

12th November 2009, 09:42 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	In Jawa people who identify themselves as Chinese , and who are identified by others as being a part of the Chinese community have absorbed a very large part of Javanese culture, which they tend to identify not as Javanese culture, but as their own culture. This applies to native born Javanese Chinese, most particularly to those who come from a family that has been in Jawa for a lengthy period of time. Yes, some elements of original Chinese culture are in evidence, but there are beliefs and practices that are not Chinese, but rather Javanese, that the Chinese-Javanese ( and I guess, the Chinese-Indonesian) person will claim to be a part of Chinese culture that can be positively identified as being borrowed from Javanese or some other local culture ( in the case of Chinese -Indonesian). This particularly applies to those Chinese communities that are located in the old seats of Javanese power, such as Surakarta and Jogjakarta. In these places it is often quite difficult to determine exactly where Javanese culture stops and Chinese culture starts. For example , the Chinese businessman and art connoisseur, Go Tik Swan, rose to an elevated position in the Karaton Surakarta with the designation of Panembahan Harjonegoro. In these old Karaton cities the Chinese and Javanese communities are so interwoven that it is difficult to view them as separate entities, rather it is perhaps easier to view them as slightly different threads of the same culture. During the upheavals of the 1960's, many Chinese people fled from other locations in Jawa, notably in East Jawa, to Central Jawa, because they had the perception that this was a safer environment for them. This does not mean that there is no anti-Chinese feeling in these Central Javanese locations. Of course there is. The burnings, riots and rapes of only a few years ago are ample evidence of this. However, upon analysis this recent violence can perhaps be identified as situational violence directed at people identified as Chinese, rather than as a culturally based violence. In Jawa it is not unusual to find people living and accepted as Javanese, who are in fact of Chinese descent and who at a different period in their lives had lived as members of a Chinese community. In respect of weaponry, we should be careful not to accept a practice noted in an individual family, or a group of families, as being a general practice that can be applied across an entire community upon the basis of a cultural division that is often quite difficult to identify.