Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

Andrew · 30th January 2005, 05:20 AM

Great post, Ian.

I once casually mentioned that I consider what we do on this forum as a kind of "sword free-association". This thread is a perfect example of this.

I also like Jim's playing card metaphor. I offered up the only observation I felt comfortable making. My "cards" if you will. By itself, that observation is useless. Factor in the other comments, and we may get somewhere. Maybe.

If not, I imagine someone will dig this thread up when more information comes to light. *shrug*

Ian · 30th January 2005, 06:16 AM

Jim and Andrew:

Thank you for the kind words, but I think I have probably said enough on this topic for now. Look forward to hearing what others think. This type of discussion does not come along very often. Hal has thrown us a real challenge here, and I do want to thank him and Tom for bringing these bolos to our attention.

This thread has the potential to be another "Black Sea Yataghan" saga or, dare we say it, another "Shaver Cool."

Cheers,

Ian.

tom hyle · 30th January 2005, 04:39 PM

I do want to try to make another point that may be too subtle for my linguistic ability at the moment: Let's try:
I don't consider the "angle" at the base of the known Mandaya blades to be part of the blade, entirely; it occurs at the joining of shaft (ricassoesque feature) and blade; thus it is essentially similar to say the forward lean of sabres, which occurs in the tang, leaving the blade per se (ie the cutting part) to be a simple curve, though the overall affect is of a re-curve. Such adjustments that are not in the blade as such seem to me to be more fluid, both within a given culture and between neighboring groups (see angle variations on sabres, or on talibon/garabs, or on kampilan). In other words, though certainly these blades do have a slight curvature, and the known Mandaya swords none, the actual blades per se are otherwise very similar, and it is a slight curve; thus to me it could be variations on a theme, with the biggest difference perhaps being the lack of an unsharp shaft/ricassoe. I don't think I sufficiently explained myself about this seeming relation earlier; hopefully I've clarified.

fearn · 30th January 2005, 06:02 PM

Great post, Ian.

Unless or until someone finds a good reference to the tribes of the Philippines, we're left guessing.

However, I'd be willing to bet money that, when we finally do figure out where these blades come from, it'll be a Philippine tribe, probably in the north, and that Therion's blade was brought home from a WWII soldier.

As an (apparent) aside, remember when the space shuttle Challenger blew up? The New York stock Exchange correctly figured out that components from Morton Thiokol had caused the explosion (Thiokol stock dropped far more steeply than did the stock of all other shuttle contractors). It took an expert commission months to figure out that it was the O-rings on the booster rockets built by Morton Thiokol.

Now, the stock market didn't have any inside information, but it did serve as a great way for agglomerating a bunch of disparate information into an accurate result. It was accurate, in part, because people had money riding on the outcome.

This is the whole basis for the Iowa Elections Market and other such predictive markets.

Getting back to this blade, I think we're seeing the same "market of ideas" here. None of us knows what it is, but (combined with the picture) a bunch of us are independently coming up with the same kinds of answers. My guess is that, as a forum, we're probably right, although I'm not sure each of us is individually. In

Going back to what Ian said, I'd like to see definitive evidence. However, I wouldn't discount the meanderings we've done so far.

Fun case!

F

Rick · 30th January 2005, 06:30 PM

I sent an email to the owner of the site on the Shuar along with a copy of the jpg. and a link to this thread .

Maybe he will respond .

I've got a couple of questions for Hal and Tom .
Does the blade appear to be hand forged ?

The sword we're discussing has a nice silvery 'sheen' on the blade up near the guard .
Would that indicate a factory made blade ?

Federico · 30th January 2005, 08:17 PM

One note I'll make. If we are still considering Northern PI as a candidate for this bolo, and we assume that the man in the picture is representative of the culture from which this bolo was found, then I believe we can limit ourselves only to the non-Christian tribes of Luzon (Christian groups at the turn of the century were Christian due to their subjugation to Spanish hegemony, as such they would A. not be in a loin-cloth B. not be considered headhunters). And if we limit ourselves to headhunters in Luzon, then we limit ourselves pretty much to the mountain tribes, called Igorot (depending who you talk to Illongots could be called Igorot, my mom is adamant that this is not the case, but Ive seen it pop up in period writing). That being the case, as noted already by Ian, while I cannot say I am any expert on the Igorot tribes (used to be a good network of websites on all the different Igorot tribes, but I believe it went down a couple years back) I dont believe Ive ever seen anything like this bolo associated with them.

Battara · 30th January 2005, 09:02 PM

Federico, "preach nah, don' play w'it!"

tom hyle · 30th January 2005, 10:45 PM

Definitely a forged, layered steel blade. It does seem to have had repeated polishings over the years, despite a lack of pitting, as the okar exhibits lines that are almost worn off, and others where there are none to reflect them, giving one to suspect those have worn entirely off. The surface exhibits a light grey patina, just about one shade darker than bare steel, over what looks like a nicely smooth old native polish.

Ian · 30th January 2005, 11:32 PM

... above, playing with Photoshop to enhance the letters, and it seems to me the last word of the inscription ends in "...OR" and I think I make out a "T" as the first letter -- maybe "TIMOR" ???

Well, that sent me to look for a suitable town, tribe, river that might fit the next to last word -- no luck (yet). So I googled Timor history and came up with some descriptions of Timor tribal men.

This quote comes from a book on the early ethnology and mythology of Timor that were recorded during the period from 1878 to 1883 by Henry O. Forbes, in his book A Naturalist's Wanderings In The Eastern Archipelago, published in New York by Harper & Brothers, 1885.

"All the natives of the islands we saw were handsome-featured fellows, lithe, tall, erect, and with splendidly formed bodies. They dyed their hair of a rich golden colour by a preparation made of cocoa-nut ash and lime, varying, however, in shade with the time, from a dirty grey through a red or russet colour, till the second day, when the approved tint appeared. Several modes of arranging their hair were in vogue. It was either carefully combed out, transfixed with a long fork-like comb, and confined within a single girdle of palm-leaf, or a black, red and white patchwork band, was allowed to hang loose to the shoulders; or it was done up in a fizzed mop, different, however, from the unravellable matted wisp seen on the Papuans of Macluer Inlet in New Guinea or among the Aru Islanders.

Their coiffure seems to depend on the kind of hair, straight or frizzled, that Nature has given them; when frizzled it is arranged in a mop, and when straight it is combed out and crimped with an instrument to hang down the back in a "cataract."

The arranging of their hair is one of their most enjoyed occupations, and the vanity with which they bind it within various coloured bands - narrow above broad - laid one on another, before a mirror formed of water collected in the bottom of a prau, or on the calm sea-face itself, is most amusing to see. The men are very fond of having their hair cut quite short, as it no doubt relieved them for a time by reducing the population in that region of their bodies."

And here are a couple of pictures of men and their hair styles from the same source. Note the way the hair of the man in the photo is pulled back by the head band. I don't know if this helps or not, but it gives us another avenue to explore.

Incidentally, European involvement in Timor goes back several centuries, with the Dutch claiming the western portion of the island (now Indonesia), and the Portuguese the eastern portion (now independent East Timor). The sandalwood trade in Timor was very lucrative, hence the interest of European countries in the island.

Some of the confusion about the appearance of the man in the photo could reflect that he may be mestizo, with some European heritage (Chinese is possible too).

fearn · 31st January 2005, 06:21 PM

Hi Ian,

I'm glad to have another candidate other than PI. However, there is a sketch of a parang from Timor in Draeger's The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia (p. 198) and they don't look at all alike. Also, as you note, Timor's towards the papuan end of the Indonesian archipelago, and our tribesman doesn't look quite right, nor is he dressed the right way.

Another older reference to Timor is in Wallace's Malay Archipelago, but it doesn't contradict anything you've posted.

F

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 02:52 PM

So I've got this talibon from Leyte. I don't know this by any mysterious nor scholarly powers; it say "Leyte" on the sheath (it says either "AbuyOg LEytE P.I." or "Abuy 09 LEytE P.I." The capitalization is just like that, except the "small" ys and g are written above the line, so they occupy the same space as the capitals (and the u, though it has a tail is giantified to match); thus it seems the way to tell whether that's " '09" or "...og" is to know if there's a district or town on Leyte called Abuy or Abuyog.). It has two features rather similar to this sword. First, the handle is of definitely rectangular cross-section. Second, the sheath is made similarly, with an extra long front piece that forms a long tail beyond the blade cavity, while the back only covers the cavity. The sheath tip also ends by the edges flaring out and being "cut off" by a straight end (though it is angled, rather than perpendicular, as this one seems to have been). It seems old, and the front of handle and sheath are covered in lime-filled carving.

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 04:18 PM

BTW, a bit about the definitions given of machete; they do not (as I suppose one might expect from lexicographers?...) show a good understanding of the proper use and the physics of machete (or perhaps of cutting), in perhaps typical fashion, getting things wrong when trying to go in depth. First, though I find the relation of the name to "mace" very interesting, especially in light of the traditional use of the flat of the machete as bludgeon by police and bosses, machete is not a heavy knife or sword; there are heavy varieties, but it is by and large marked by being a lightweight sword. The old forged ones had distal taper, for all the same reasons as any other sword. The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do have, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords.
Why is machete thin?

oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there.....

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 04:26 PM

Wow, I don't think I'll edit that one any more (unless it offends someone and I have to); check it out; I tried to roll my eyes at my own broad net-casting, but the placement worked out just right to roll 'em up at Master's oppressiveness.....I tell youse; it was a total accident, but I really enjoy it though; even the computer can make a joke, I guess.
One other little thing about the word machete; Spanish officials in the 19th and (at least) early 20th used to apply it very broadly and liberally; How 'bout it, Therion; that Spainish military "machete" I swapped you ain't no machete, eh? It's a heavy-ass backsword.....I'd hesitate to use the Spanish term as a designation for this type, though as it's all we have I guess it makes sense. I certainly wouldn't read any thing into it as to the traditional usage of the sword.

Rick · 23rd April 2005, 05:03 PM

Tom , maybe you're looking at the wrong language for the word root .
Try macerar , Spanish to macerate .

Ian · 23rd April 2005, 06:28 PM

Thanks Tom ... I think. My eyes are having trouble reading fast enough to keep up with your thoughts. Man, you pack a lot in one paragraph.

How does what you say here mesh with Carter Rila's essay on the machete posted elsewhere on this site?

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords.
Why is machete thin?

oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there.....

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 08:32 PM

not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework

Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway.

tom hyle · 24th April 2005, 03:10 AM

Meshes fairly well, I think. I had forgotten Carters' creditting of American Indian stick use for machete origins. A very good spice to add to the mix

He does also mention the more usually heard lineage through the "sailors' cutlass" and other european hangers, including dual use types like langenmesser (commonly called grossmesser; props to Therion for diseminating the more correct form, or at least he says so, and he's probably right, but I don't know how the argument goes.....cutlace, cuttoe, there was a Spanish version, too; a dual-use soldiers' and peasants' landclearing sword with a curved blade and wide tip, but I forget the name; I think Museum Rep.s once had a copy for sale). It is worth noting that machetes are said to be commonly called "cutlass" in the Caribean region.
The resemblance to butchering knives is A/intentional, as there has always been a somewhat legalistic claim that machete (as with many large European peasant knives) is a knife, rather than a sword; ie nonviolent ( so strong and persistent is this custom that N American men still regularly tell me "That's not a sword; that's a machete!" Yeah, and that's not a mammal, it's a dog.....the women [of course?] more usually know that they don't know..... ), and B/ only pertains to the overall view of the sword, and the handle design, but certainly the cross-section is different in that machete, even when it does have a slight full height bevel, has a thick, heavy, relatively obtusely angled edge for strength against battering, compared to a butchering knife's thin, fine, acute edge for slashing/slicing.
Carter also mentions the way the term seems to be much more broadly applied and to heavier implements in Spain than in at least N America.
I don't think he's right about machete costeno of the Acapulco region being a post wwII phenomenon. This is the "yelman" machete; also known, I am told, as "cuchilla del costa" or (West) coast knife. We've all seen the engraved ones, I guess, with the saddle scabbards and the eagle pommels, that are so very similar to US machetes of the early 20th, and though production of the horn handled distal tapered, full height bevel machete seems to have gone on longer in Mexico than US, many of them seem quite old. I've an old farmery one, with a different (zoomorphic?) type pommel. The two native ones (I've another with a possibly reshaped Robert Mole blade) that I have both have typical hotstruck Spanish colonial maker's marks; name (personal? family? town?) or initials, as seen on Luzon bolos as well, while the engraving is a later cold process, and this seems typical of Mexican and Spanish colonial work in general? I had a nice little "bowie" though, where there was only engraving "Vivan los Herdez" Herdez is a family name; not sure maker or owner......otherwise it's more often sometimes the other way; hotstruck mark but no engraving, or else both.
We're pretty well on the same page it seems as to the role played by the rise of cheap modern spring tempered carbon steel in the rise of this thin, light sword, which lacks stiffness when softer, though one does encounter softer ones, as well.

tom hyle · 24th April 2005, 07:52 AM

Leyte has an official website with a map. Abuyog is on the East coast. There is a town called Kananga in the interior, for whatever that might mean.

tom hyle · 24th April 2005, 10:36 PM

Ya know, Ian, I had started leaning toward those being scarf ends myself, but now, seeing those ear rings; the length, curvature, and end sure are similar. The face does bear a resemblance, as well, if one considers that our sword holder does seem to be "making a face" that seems to distort his lips. Thanks, Nosmo.

30th January 2005, 11:32 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Looking again at the picture ... above, playing with Photoshop to enhance the letters, and it seems to me the last word of the inscription ends in "...OR" and I think I make out a "T" as the first letter -- maybe "TIMOR" ??? Well, that sent me to look for a suitable town, tribe, river that might fit the next to last word -- no luck (yet). So I googled Timor history and came up with some descriptions of Timor tribal men. This quote comes from a book on the early ethnology and mythology of Timor that were recorded during the period from 1878 to 1883 by Henry O. Forbes, in his book A Naturalist's Wanderings In The Eastern Archipelago, published in New York by Harper & Brothers, 1885. "All the natives of the islands we saw were handsome-featured fellows, lithe, tall, erect, and with splendidly formed bodies. They dyed their hair of a rich golden colour by a preparation made of cocoa-nut ash and lime, varying, however, in shade with the time, from a dirty grey through a red or russet colour, till the second day, when the approved tint appeared. Several modes of arranging their hair were in vogue. It was either carefully combed out, transfixed with a long fork-like comb, and confined within a single girdle of palm-leaf, or a black, red and white patchwork band, was allowed to hang loose to the shoulders; or it was done up in a fizzed mop, different, however, from the unravellable matted wisp seen on the Papuans of Macluer Inlet in New Guinea or among the Aru Islanders. Their coiffure seems to depend on the kind of hair, straight or frizzled, that Nature has given them; when frizzled it is arranged in a mop, and when straight it is combed out and crimped with an instrument to hang down the back in a "cataract." The arranging of their hair is one of their most enjoyed occupations, and the vanity with which they bind it within various coloured bands - narrow above broad - laid one on another, before a mirror formed of water collected in the bottom of a prau, or on the calm sea-face itself, is most amusing to see. The men are very fond of having their hair cut quite short, as it no doubt relieved them for a time by reducing the population in that region of their bodies." And here are a couple of pictures of men and their hair styles from the same source. Note the way the hair of the man in the photo is pulled back by the head band. I don't know if this helps or not, but it gives us another avenue to explore. Incidentally, European involvement in Timor goes back several centuries, with the Dutch claiming the western portion of the island (now Indonesia), and the Portuguese the eastern portion (now independent East Timor). The sandalwood trade in Timor was very lucrative, hence the interest of European countries in the island. Some of the confusion about the appearance of the man in the photo could reflect that he may be mestizo, with some European heritage (Chinese is possible too). Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 31st January 2005 at 03:13 AM.

23rd April 2005, 02:52 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	talibon from Leyte So I've got this talibon from Leyte. I don't know this by any mysterious nor scholarly powers; it say "Leyte" on the sheath (it says either "AbuyOg LEytE P.I." or "Abuy 09 LEytE P.I." The capitalization is just like that, except the "small" ys and g are written above the line, so they occupy the same space as the capitals (and the u, though it has a tail is giantified to match); thus it seems the way to tell whether that's " '09" or "...og" is to know if there's a district or town on Leyte called Abuy or Abuyog.). It has two features rather similar to this sword. First, the handle is of definitely rectangular cross-section. Second, the sheath is made similarly, with an extra long front piece that forms a long tail beyond the blade cavity, while the back only covers the cavity. The sheath tip also ends by the edges flaring out and being "cut off" by a straight end (though it is angled, rather than perpendicular, as this one seems to have been). It seems old, and the front of handle and sheath are covered in lime-filled carving.

23rd April 2005, 04:18 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	machete BTW, a bit about the definitions given of machete; they do not (as I suppose one might expect from lexicographers?...) show a good understanding of the proper use and the physics of machete (or perhaps of cutting), in perhaps typical fashion, getting things wrong when trying to go in depth. First, though I find the relation of the name to "mace" very interesting, especially in light of the traditional use of the flat of the machete as bludgeon by police and bosses, machete is not a heavy knife or sword; there are heavy varieties, but it is by and large marked by being a lightweight sword. The old forged ones had distal taper, for all the same reasons as any other sword. The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do have, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords. Why is machete thin? oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there..... Last edited by tom hyle; 24th April 2005 at 02:35 AM.

23rd April 2005, 05:03 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Machete Tom , maybe you're looking at the wrong language for the word root . Try macerar , Spanish to macerate .

23rd April 2005, 08:32 PM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway. Last edited by tom hyle; 23rd April 2005 at 08:44 PM.

30th January 2005, 05:20 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Great post, Ian. I once casually mentioned that I consider what we do on this forum as a kind of "sword free-association". This thread is a perfect example of this. I also like Jim's playing card metaphor. I offered up the only observation I felt comfortable making. My "cards" if you will. By itself, that observation is useless. Factor in the other comments, and we may get somewhere. Maybe. If not, I imagine someone will dig this thread up when more information comes to light. shrug

30th January 2005, 06:16 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Jim and Andrew: Thank you for the kind words, but I think I have probably said enough on this topic for now. Look forward to hearing what others think. This type of discussion does not come along very often. Hal has thrown us a real challenge here, and I do want to thank him and Tom for bringing these bolos to our attention. This thread has the potential to be another "Black Sea Yataghan" saga or, dare we say it, another "Shaver Cool." Cheers, Ian.

30th January 2005, 04:39 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I do want to try to make another point that may be too subtle for my linguistic ability at the moment: Let's try: I don't consider the "angle" at the base of the known Mandaya blades to be part of the blade, entirely; it occurs at the joining of shaft (ricassoesque feature) and blade; thus it is essentially similar to say the forward lean of sabres, which occurs in the tang, leaving the blade per se (ie the cutting part) to be a simple curve, though the overall affect is of a re-curve. Such adjustments that are not in the blade as such seem to me to be more fluid, both within a given culture and between neighboring groups (see angle variations on sabres, or on talibon/garabs, or on kampilan). In other words, though certainly these blades do have a slight curvature, and the known Mandaya swords none, the actual blades per se are otherwise very similar, and it is a slight curve; thus to me it could be variations on a theme, with the biggest difference perhaps being the lack of an unsharp shaft/ricassoe. I don't think I sufficiently explained myself about this seeming relation earlier; hopefully I've clarified.

30th January 2005, 06:02 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Great post, Ian. Unless or until someone finds a good reference to the tribes of the Philippines, we're left guessing. However, I'd be willing to bet money that, when we finally do figure out where these blades come from, it'll be a Philippine tribe, probably in the north, and that Therion's blade was brought home from a WWII soldier. As an (apparent) aside, remember when the space shuttle Challenger blew up? The New York stock Exchange correctly figured out that components from Morton Thiokol had caused the explosion (Thiokol stock dropped far more steeply than did the stock of all other shuttle contractors). It took an expert commission months to figure out that it was the O-rings on the booster rockets built by Morton Thiokol. Now, the stock market didn't have any inside information, but it did serve as a great way for agglomerating a bunch of disparate information into an accurate result. It was accurate, in part, because people had money riding on the outcome. This is the whole basis for the Iowa Elections Market and other such predictive markets. Getting back to this blade, I think we're seeing the same "market of ideas" here. None of us knows what it is, but (combined with the picture) a bunch of us are independently coming up with the same kinds of answers. My guess is that, as a forum, we're probably right, although I'm not sure each of us is individually. In Going back to what Ian said, I'd like to see definitive evidence. However, I wouldn't discount the meanderings we've done so far. Fun case! F

30th January 2005, 06:30 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I sent an email to the owner of the site on the Shuar along with a copy of the jpg. and a link to this thread . Maybe he will respond . I've got a couple of questions for Hal and Tom . Does the blade appear to be hand forged ? The sword we're discussing has a nice silvery 'sheen' on the blade up near the guard . Would that indicate a factory made blade ?

30th January 2005, 08:17 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	One note I'll make. If we are still considering Northern PI as a candidate for this bolo, and we assume that the man in the picture is representative of the culture from which this bolo was found, then I believe we can limit ourselves only to the non-Christian tribes of Luzon (Christian groups at the turn of the century were Christian due to their subjugation to Spanish hegemony, as such they would A. not be in a loin-cloth B. not be considered headhunters). And if we limit ourselves to headhunters in Luzon, then we limit ourselves pretty much to the mountain tribes, called Igorot (depending who you talk to Illongots could be called Igorot, my mom is adamant that this is not the case, but Ive seen it pop up in period writing). That being the case, as noted already by Ian, while I cannot say I am any expert on the Igorot tribes (used to be a good network of websites on all the different Igorot tribes, but I believe it went down a couple years back) I dont believe Ive ever seen anything like this bolo associated with them.

30th January 2005, 09:02 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Federico, "preach nah, don' play w'it!"

30th January 2005, 10:45 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Definitely a forged, layered steel blade. It does seem to have had repeated polishings over the years, despite a lack of pitting, as the okar exhibits lines that are almost worn off, and others where there are none to reflect them, giving one to suspect those have worn entirely off. The surface exhibits a light grey patina, just about one shade darker than bare steel, over what looks like a nicely smooth old native polish.

31st January 2005, 06:21 PM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ian, I'm glad to have another candidate other than PI. However, there is a sketch of a parang from Timor in Draeger's The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia (p. 198) and they don't look at all alike. Also, as you note, Timor's towards the papuan end of the Indonesian archipelago, and our tribesman doesn't look quite right, nor is he dressed the right way. Another older reference to Timor is in Wallace's Malay Archipelago, but it doesn't contradict anything you've posted. F

23rd April 2005, 04:26 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Wow, I don't think I'll edit that one any more (unless it offends someone and I have to); check it out; I tried to roll my eyes at my own broad net-casting, but the placement worked out just right to roll 'em up at Master's oppressiveness.....I tell youse; it was a total accident, but I really enjoy it though; even the computer can make a joke, I guess. One other little thing about the word machete; Spanish officials in the 19th and (at least) early 20th used to apply it very broadly and liberally; How 'bout it, Therion; that Spainish military "machete" I swapped you ain't no machete, eh? It's a heavy-ass backsword.....I'd hesitate to use the Spanish term as a designation for this type, though as it's all we have I guess it makes sense. I certainly wouldn't read any thing into it as to the traditional usage of the sword.

24th April 2005, 03:10 AM	#17
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Meshes fairly well, I think. I had forgotten Carters' creditting of American Indian stick use for machete origins. A very good spice to add to the mix He does also mention the more usually heard lineage through the "sailors' cutlass" and other european hangers, including dual use types like langenmesser (commonly called grossmesser; props to Therion for diseminating the more correct form, or at least he says so, and he's probably right, but I don't know how the argument goes.....cutlace, cuttoe, there was a Spanish version, too; a dual-use soldiers' and peasants' landclearing sword with a curved blade and wide tip, but I forget the name; I think Museum Rep.s once had a copy for sale). It is worth noting that machetes are said to be commonly called "cutlass" in the Caribean region. The resemblance to butchering knives is A/intentional, as there has always been a somewhat legalistic claim that machete (as with many large European peasant knives) is a knife, rather than a sword; ie nonviolent ( so strong and persistent is this custom that N American men still regularly tell me "That's not a sword; that's a machete!" Yeah, and that's not a mammal, it's a dog.....the women [of course?] more usually know that they don't know..... ), and B/ only pertains to the overall view of the sword, and the handle design, but certainly the cross-section is different in that machete, even when it does have a slight full height bevel, has a thick, heavy, relatively obtusely angled edge for strength against battering, compared to a butchering knife's thin, fine, acute edge for slashing/slicing. Carter also mentions the way the term seems to be much more broadly applied and to heavier implements in Spain than in at least N America. I don't think he's right about machete costeno of the Acapulco region being a post wwII phenomenon. This is the "yelman" machete; also known, I am told, as "cuchilla del costa" or (West) coast knife. We've all seen the engraved ones, I guess, with the saddle scabbards and the eagle pommels, that are so very similar to US machetes of the early 20th, and though production of the horn handled distal tapered, full height bevel machete seems to have gone on longer in Mexico than US, many of them seem quite old. I've an old farmery one, with a different (zoomorphic?) type pommel. The two native ones (I've another with a possibly reshaped Robert Mole blade) that I have both have typical hotstruck Spanish colonial maker's marks; name (personal? family? town?) or initials, as seen on Luzon bolos as well, while the engraving is a later cold process, and this seems typical of Mexican and Spanish colonial work in general? I had a nice little "bowie" though, where there was only engraving "Vivan los Herdez" Herdez is a family name; not sure maker or owner......otherwise it's more often sometimes the other way; hotstruck mark but no engraving, or else both. We're pretty well on the same page it seems as to the role played by the rise of cheap modern spring tempered carbon steel in the rise of this thin, light sword, which lacks stiffness when softer, though one does encounter softer ones, as well. Last edited by tom hyle; 24th April 2005 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Mexico is on N America

24th April 2005, 07:52 AM	#18
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Leyte has an official website with a map. Abuyog is on the East coast. There is a town called Kananga in the interior, for whatever that might mean.

24th April 2005, 10:36 PM	#19
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ya know, Ian, I had started leaning toward those being scarf ends myself, but now, seeing those ear rings; the length, curvature, and end sure are similar. The face does bear a resemblance, as well, if one considers that our sword holder does seem to be "making a face" that seems to distort his lips. Thanks, Nosmo.