Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:18 AM

The lines on the spine and the "okar" at the front of the blade base are things I've encountered only in SE Asia. Berber and Celtic spine markings are not the same.
The blade shape is identical to the simpler of the Mandaya/Manobo pieces we've been seeing, except (big exception, I know, but big similarity, too) lacking a ricassoe (angled or otherwise).
The hilt shape is markedly similar to Mandaya daggers.
The man's nose looks Malay to me.
Those are some Asian looking eyes, too.
Not saying you don't see these features on S Americans, but sure looks plenty Malay (etc.) to me.
Check his belt and ear-rings; what was that "fashion sense"? Those may be our clues.
Aside from weight, these are markedly similar to Collins 1005, which is generally said to be copied from a PI "bolo" (tenuous, I know; just covering bases).
Blade is similar to machete, or parang nabur.
The hilts on both are covered in brass/copper sheeting, for whatever that means.
Hilt section is rectangular, with fairly sharply defined edges.
No buttspike on mine; how sure are we that's tang, anyway? What's the coresponding feature on a Mandaya dagger? Tang?
Blade is folded steel.
End of handle can be seen through large guard hole (remember the wiggle?) looks porous; could it be antler? Rattan?
The rattan bindings on sheath and hilt look SE Asian to me; why not to you?
In any event, neither is original, though both are old.
That's some kind of old (adhesive?) paper/tape down the edges of the sheath.
The criss-crossing of the overbinding (repair? joining method for a talismanic cloth?) particularly reminds me of Moro handle wraps.
How 'bout that red cloth? A small piece of a different old red cloth came tied to the sheath.
Blade is light and thin, with, as I recall, a humped wedge section.
Sheath is made in two shells in ordinary fashion; only the long, non-hollow "tail" is one-sided.
Sheath has remains of/biniding site for three or four rattan suspension-loops. I see the mouth of the sheath under his left armpit.

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 05:28 AM

A further note is that that is not the original sheath-tip; the original end was a squared-off expanded-end rectangle, I should think, somewhat like the throat end; one of the corners is broken off, giving an illusion of a clipped tip.

Ian · 28th January 2005, 06:39 AM

Wrong blade -- the spine of the blade is upcurving in the photo above and has no sharp angle. Mandayan blades are straight along the spine, with the exception of an angled area a short distance in front of the hilt.

Wrong ricasso (as noted above)

Wrong hilt (as noted above)

Presence of a disk guard -- Mandayan bolos have no guard.

The only clear similarity to a Mandayan bolo is the shape of the belly of the blade.

On the Mandayan dagger, the central protrusion from the top of the hilt is an extension of the tang. The bolo, however, has a blind tang construction.

Hal Siegel · 28th January 2005, 06:44 AM

Tom Hyle: That's some kind of old (adhesive?) paper/tape down the edges of the sheath.

Actually, it looks like palm frond or a similar leaf material used for edging and repairs. Some of the frond is old and yellow/white, some of it looks to be newer and still a slight shade of green.

fearn · 28th January 2005, 03:05 PM

About the photo:

To my uneducated eyes, it looks like the tribesman is sitting on a rice mortar. That puts him in Asia.

I'd also add that tattooing (nice Polynesia word) is pretty widespread in Asia. I've certainly seen examples from Thailand, China, and Japan (Yakuza, anyone?).

I've been googling Cana/Canas/etc. There is a Canas river in Basilan Province, Philippines, for what it's worth. No other major hits yet. Most of the hits seem to be hispanic, for what it's worth--to me, that kind of points toward the philippines (under US occupation for a while), but I don't have a good clue.

The only Canas tribe in South America was defeated by the Incas. Somehow, I don't think the blade comes from there.

Also for what it's worth, that scabbard reminds me a lot of those half-scabbards with the open sides that we've seen on Taiwanese and Naga blades. The other side isn't open, by any chance, Hal?

Neat blade. A better picture of its owner would be nice, if that's possible--to read the text.

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:09 PM

Good point about the spinal curve, although I note it's pretty slight curve; I went back to some old threads and couldn't find a Mandaya example with any.
About the "high shinogi" I'm not sure you're correct; it's my impression that this feature is not universal.
Mind you, I'm not saying it is Mandaya; I don't know what it is; I'm saying I see an awful lot of similarities, and I bet something accounts for them. My inclination overall is that this is a form of parang nabur with a hilt similar to a Madaya dagger hilt. I'd sure like to know more. It's got that great helpful provenence; "Philippine 47" on a little paper tag.
BTW: "headhunter......cannibal.....?"

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:15 PM

Thanks, Fearn; I didn't consider we could ID his chair, stupid man that I am.
No, the sheath is not open on any side. It has one long shell that goes it's whole length, while the other shell is only part-length, covering the cavity for the blade; the remaining length being a solid wooden "tail". A small triangular piece at the end of the shorter (back side) shell is an old repair. One corner, as I note is broken off, and this expanded-rectangle sheath-tip also seems SE Asian to me
The edges are lined/wrapped with a "channel" of natural fibre material, either leafs or paper of some kind, then wound over with split giant grass (rattan?) skin. On the front, which is the side we see here, there are thin red and black strips of rattan skin than run lengthwise under this wrapping, and they are otherwise loose to wiggle around.
The sheath appears intended for edge-up wear, if worn as seen in the photo.

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:27 PM

BTW, the look of the musculature on the man's cheeks gives me to suspect he is "making a face" perhaps a formalized toothless smile, much like the Giaconda/Mona Lisa everyone thinks so significant, perhaps sucking on a quid, so I wouldn't try to read any racial/regional data into his lips, not that one can conclusively ID origins that way, of course.

Spunjer · 28th January 2005, 03:27 PM

what about the "golden triangle" (thailand, laos, burma) area? possibilities?

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:34 PM

The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again.
I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.

28th January 2005, 03:18 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The lines on the spine and the "okar" at the front of the blade base are things I've encountered only in SE Asia. Berber and Celtic spine markings are not the same. The blade shape is identical to the simpler of the Mandaya/Manobo pieces we've been seeing, except (big exception, I know, but big similarity, too) lacking a ricassoe (angled or otherwise). The hilt shape is markedly similar to Mandaya daggers. The man's nose looks Malay to me. Those are some Asian looking eyes, too. Not saying you don't see these features on S Americans, but sure looks plenty Malay (etc.) to me. Check his belt and ear-rings; what was that "fashion sense"? Those may be our clues. Aside from weight, these are markedly similar to Collins 1005, which is generally said to be copied from a PI "bolo" (tenuous, I know; just covering bases). Blade is similar to machete, or parang nabur. The hilts on both are covered in brass/copper sheeting, for whatever that means. Hilt section is rectangular, with fairly sharply defined edges. No buttspike on mine; how sure are we that's tang, anyway? What's the coresponding feature on a Mandaya dagger? Tang? Blade is folded steel. End of handle can be seen through large guard hole (remember the wiggle?) looks porous; could it be antler? Rattan? The rattan bindings on sheath and hilt look SE Asian to me; why not to you? In any event, neither is original, though both are old. That's some kind of old (adhesive?) paper/tape down the edges of the sheath. The criss-crossing of the overbinding (repair? joining method for a talismanic cloth?) particularly reminds me of Moro handle wraps. How 'bout that red cloth? A small piece of a different old red cloth came tied to the sheath. Blade is light and thin, with, as I recall, a humped wedge section. Sheath is made in two shells in ordinary fashion; only the long, non-hollow "tail" is one-sided. Sheath has remains of/biniding site for three or four rattan suspension-loops. I see the mouth of the sheath under his left armpit. Last edited by tom hyle; 28th January 2005 at 03:38 PM.

28th January 2005, 06:39 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Conclusively not Mandayan ... Wrong blade -- the spine of the blade is upcurving in the photo above and has no sharp angle. Mandayan blades are straight along the spine, with the exception of an angled area a short distance in front of the hilt. Wrong ricasso (as noted above) Wrong hilt (as noted above) Presence of a disk guard -- Mandayan bolos have no guard. The only clear similarity to a Mandayan bolo is the shape of the belly of the blade. On the Mandayan dagger, the central protrusion from the top of the hilt is an extension of the tang. The bolo, however, has a blind tang construction.

28th January 2005, 03:27 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, the look of the musculature on the man's cheeks gives me to suspect he is "making a face" perhaps a formalized toothless smile, much like the Giaconda/Mona Lisa everyone thinks so significant, perhaps sucking on a quid, so I wouldn't try to read any racial/regional data into his lips, not that one can conclusively ID origins that way, of course. Last edited by tom hyle; 28th January 2005 at 03:42 PM.

28th January 2005, 05:28 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	A further note is that that is not the original sheath-tip; the original end was a squared-off expanded-end rectangle, I should think, somewhat like the throat end; one of the corners is broken off, giving an illusion of a clipped tip.

28th January 2005, 06:44 AM	#4
Hal Siegel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15	Tom Hyle: That's some kind of old (adhesive?) paper/tape down the edges of the sheath. Actually, it looks like palm frond or a similar leaf material used for edging and repairs. Some of the frond is old and yellow/white, some of it looks to be newer and still a slight shade of green.

28th January 2005, 03:05 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	About the photo: To my uneducated eyes, it looks like the tribesman is sitting on a rice mortar. That puts him in Asia. I'd also add that tattooing (nice Polynesia word) is pretty widespread in Asia. I've certainly seen examples from Thailand, China, and Japan (Yakuza, anyone?). I've been googling Cana/Canas/etc. There is a Canas river in Basilan Province, Philippines, for what it's worth. No other major hits yet. Most of the hits seem to be hispanic, for what it's worth--to me, that kind of points toward the philippines (under US occupation for a while), but I don't have a good clue. The only Canas tribe in South America was defeated by the Incas. Somehow, I don't think the blade comes from there. Also for what it's worth, that scabbard reminds me a lot of those half-scabbards with the open sides that we've seen on Taiwanese and Naga blades. The other side isn't open, by any chance, Hal? Neat blade. A better picture of its owner would be nice, if that's possible--to read the text.

28th January 2005, 03:09 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Good point about the spinal curve, although I note it's pretty slight curve; I went back to some old threads and couldn't find a Mandaya example with any. About the "high shinogi" I'm not sure you're correct; it's my impression that this feature is not universal. Mind you, I'm not saying it is Mandaya; I don't know what it is; I'm saying I see an awful lot of similarities, and I bet something accounts for them. My inclination overall is that this is a form of parang nabur with a hilt similar to a Madaya dagger hilt. I'd sure like to know more. It's got that great helpful provenence; "Philippine 47" on a little paper tag. BTW: "headhunter......cannibal.....?"

28th January 2005, 03:15 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks, Fearn; I didn't consider we could ID his chair, stupid man that I am. No, the sheath is not open on any side. It has one long shell that goes it's whole length, while the other shell is only part-length, covering the cavity for the blade; the remaining length being a solid wooden "tail". A small triangular piece at the end of the shorter (back side) shell is an old repair. One corner, as I note is broken off, and this expanded-rectangle sheath-tip also seems SE Asian to me The edges are lined/wrapped with a "channel" of natural fibre material, either leafs or paper of some kind, then wound over with split giant grass (rattan?) skin. On the front, which is the side we see here, there are thin red and black strips of rattan skin than run lengthwise under this wrapping, and they are otherwise loose to wiggle around. The sheath appears intended for edge-up wear, if worn as seen in the photo.

28th January 2005, 03:27 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	what about the "golden triangle" (thailand, laos, burma) area? possibilities?

28th January 2005, 03:34 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again. I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.