Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

fernando · 2nd May 2014, 12:29 PM

Hi Andi, welcome to the forum

Say, aren't you skipping over a vital detail, which is that mark on the ricasso ?
Once identified, it will be more than half way to find the provenance of your sword and potentialy remove the historism possibility.
Can you take a better picture of this one ?

.

AHorsa · 2nd May 2014, 01:32 PM

Hi at all and thanks for your replies. Fernando you are right, I forgot to mention the mark. Here is a better picture of it. I studied some books about Solingen-Marks but couldn´t find it.

Best regards,
Andi

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 04:31 PM

Mark, as shown with that astute assessment, you are far from 'novice'!!!!
I agree on the period, which I think is around mid 17th perhaps into the first half. Excellent observation on the Dutch associations, and the style of the hilt does recall some of the elaborately carved themes on these colonial hilts favored through VOC trade in the East Indies.
However, I am inclined to see this as among the English 'riding swords' of this period, and the sometimes almost fanciful use of heraldic lions in a themed hilt corresponds in degree to many of these kinds of hilts with the 'green man' and of the type. In many cases this motif is in accord with some seen even on the so called 'mortuary' hilts with facemask etc. in the style at least.

The one thing which would set this attribution outside England would be the thumb ring, or former presence of it, as this is very much a Continental feature. Here I would point out the profound connections between England and the Netherlands in these times, in fact Great Britain became essentially a Dutch dominion under William of Orange by the end of the century . The influences shared in weaponry between Dutch and English styles is seen well into the 18th century, especially in smallswords, which actually seem to have evolved from such riding swords amalgamated with the rapier.

The shellguard seems much in accord with these riding swords, and Mark's note on the curvature of same is well placed.

To me the patination looks good, and concurs with swords of this age. The blade is interesting, and I have not found information on these rather unusual lenticular blades, but know they were used of course. The stamp at the forte seems floral, but I cant make it out. In style it seems like it could be one of the town stamps used by VOC kamers (the seven chambers in Netherlands) but have not yet found more .

As well noted by Andi, the 1518 is indeed a magic number rather than date, and the running wolf along with it indicates of course pretty much a standard pairing for Solingen products of these times.
Here I would note that I truly appreciate the preliminary research, well detailed description and good photos provided by Andi in this thread.
Nicely done, and thank you Andi!

In conclusion, I do not think this is in any way a historism piece, but as always I would defer to opinions of Jasper or Michael.

All best regards,
Jim

PS, the suggestion to the work of Gottfried Leygebe seems interesting.
There appears to be a pertinent article by Ada Bruhn,
"Der Schwertfeger Gottfried Leygebe" in Vol I of 'Tojhusmuseets Skrifter'
(1945) but I could not access it .

fernando · 3rd May 2014, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

...I studied some books about Solingen-Marks but couldn´t find it. ...

Having a look at the inunmerous marks in the Wallace Colection catalogue (1962) i don't find it either ... whatever is correct position.

.

M ELEY · 4th May 2014, 12:58 AM

I did forget to thank Andi for psoting this fascinating sword! I love pieces from this time period, particularly the early hanger types.

Thank you, Jim, for the complement! It means much coming from one of the founding fathers of the Forum! (Not trying to show your age or anything-

). I had forgotten about the riding swords and their somewhat whimsical dsigns. Very well placed and definitely a good possibility. I do have to read up on those amazing sword types from that era.

Fernando, you were very astute to point out the stamp. Even I had blundered past it when this thread was originally posted. Is there any possibility that flower could be a tulip? (Dutch tip of the hat again. Sorry, can't get past those lions

).

Jim pointed out the lentricular blade pattern. Was this type used on Brit swords? Dutch? German? Also, the iron hilt being chizeled/cut and not forged. Does this point to an attribution? Jim, you are right, we need Jasper or Michael on this one! Or perhaps someone else? Where are the forumites hiding-

AHorsa · 4th May 2014, 12:02 PM

Thanks a lot for your detailed and knowing comments!

Concerning the surrounding of Gottfried Leygebe there is a similar sword in Seitz Blankwaffen II attributed to Leygebe and the Rapier (second from above) at Hermann-Historica (http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat52_A.txt) which has a similar crossguard is attributed to the surrounding of Leygebe. On the other hand, the pommel-lion and the position of its legs is quite similar to those of the VOC-swords Mark mentioned, but the VOC-lionhilt-swords normally showing (as far as I saw them) a lion that covers the whole hilt. Also the shape of the flat straps does remember me on northern european/dutch swords from the first half of the 17th cent.

This relatively simple blade often occurs at german or middle-european broadswords (Felddegen) of the 17th century, more at simple versions than at officers weapons. But there also are a few examples for nicely crested swords using a simple blade.

Anyway, together with your statements I also think that there is a good chance that the sword descended from netherland´ territory. I am excited what Jasper and/or Micheal are thinking.

Thanks a lot and best regards,
Andi

cornelistromp · 4th May 2014, 12:04 PM

beautiful field sword, it also has all the characteristics of a Dutch sword.
a lion holding a shield, monster heads on the guillon block spitting out the parry rods. So yes I do think it is Dutch and it can be dated 1640-1650.

In the mid of the 17th C. ,this type of swords were seen as THE sports cars under the swords and were developed between 1640 and 1650. It is the transition period from heavy back swords and long rapiers to the smaller swifter and more efficient small swords.
They can be seen on the civil guard pieces of the dutch painter J.A. Rotius around 1650. Their owners hold pridely their hand around the pommel or grip to highlight the new type of sword .

Given the high quality of iron carving, a link to the medal cutters in Paris can be made, unfortunately this is difficult to prove.

This type is very rare, there are only a few examples known to me.
see pictures.

best,

fernando · 4th May 2014, 01:08 PM

Great, Jasper or should i say... Great Jasper

AHorsa · 4th May 2014, 06:22 PM

Jasper that´s great!! Thanks a lot! So, do you think as a conclusion that my sword is belonging together in all parts and no historism peace?

Best regards,
Andi

P.S.: I postet another comment before Jasper did. But there is a delay when I am posting. So don´t wonder about the overlaps :-)

M ELEY · 4th May 2014, 09:59 PM

Spectacular, Jasper! Glad you could come in on this one! Andi, you have a fine sword any one of us would be envious to have!

2nd May 2014, 12:29 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Andi, welcome to the forum Say, aren't you skipping over a vital detail, which is that mark on the ricasso ? Once identified, it will be more than half way to find the provenance of your sword and potentialy remove the historism possibility. Can you take a better picture of this one ? . Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 01:32 PM	#2
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Hi at all and thanks for your replies. Fernando you are right, I forgot to mention the mark. Here is a better picture of it. I studied some books about Solingen-Marks but couldn´t find it. Best regards, Andi Attached Images

3rd May 2014, 04:31 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Mark, as shown with that astute assessment, you are far from 'novice'!!!! I agree on the period, which I think is around mid 17th perhaps into the first half. Excellent observation on the Dutch associations, and the style of the hilt does recall some of the elaborately carved themes on these colonial hilts favored through VOC trade in the East Indies. However, I am inclined to see this as among the English 'riding swords' of this period, and the sometimes almost fanciful use of heraldic lions in a themed hilt corresponds in degree to many of these kinds of hilts with the 'green man' and of the type. In many cases this motif is in accord with some seen even on the so called 'mortuary' hilts with facemask etc. in the style at least. The one thing which would set this attribution outside England would be the thumb ring, or former presence of it, as this is very much a Continental feature. Here I would point out the profound connections between England and the Netherlands in these times, in fact Great Britain became essentially a Dutch dominion under William of Orange by the end of the century . The influences shared in weaponry between Dutch and English styles is seen well into the 18th century, especially in smallswords, which actually seem to have evolved from such riding swords amalgamated with the rapier. The shellguard seems much in accord with these riding swords, and Mark's note on the curvature of same is well placed. To me the patination looks good, and concurs with swords of this age. The blade is interesting, and I have not found information on these rather unusual lenticular blades, but know they were used of course. The stamp at the forte seems floral, but I cant make it out. In style it seems like it could be one of the town stamps used by VOC kamers (the seven chambers in Netherlands) but have not yet found more . As well noted by Andi, the 1518 is indeed a magic number rather than date, and the running wolf along with it indicates of course pretty much a standard pairing for Solingen products of these times. Here I would note that I truly appreciate the preliminary research, well detailed description and good photos provided by Andi in this thread. Nicely done, and thank you Andi! In conclusion, I do not think this is in any way a historism piece, but as always I would defer to opinions of Jasper or Michael. All best regards, Jim PS, the suggestion to the work of Gottfried Leygebe seems interesting. There appears to be a pertinent article by Ada Bruhn, "Der Schwertfeger Gottfried Leygebe" in Vol I of 'Tojhusmuseets Skrifter' (1945) but I could not access it . Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd May 2014 at 04:54 PM.

4th May 2014, 12:04 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	beautiful field sword, it also has all the characteristics of a Dutch sword. a lion holding a shield, monster heads on the guillon block spitting out the parry rods. So yes I do think it is Dutch and it can be dated 1640-1650. In the mid of the 17th C. ,this type of swords were seen as THE sports cars under the swords and were developed between 1640 and 1650. It is the transition period from heavy back swords and long rapiers to the smaller swifter and more efficient small swords. They can be seen on the civil guard pieces of the dutch painter J.A. Rotius around 1650. Their owners hold pridely their hand around the pommel or grip to highlight the new type of sword . Given the high quality of iron carving, a link to the medal cutters in Paris can be made, unfortunately this is difficult to prove. This type is very rare, there are only a few examples known to me. see pictures. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 4th May 2014 at 04:44 PM.

4th May 2014, 12:58 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I did forget to thank Andi for psoting this fascinating sword! I love pieces from this time period, particularly the early hanger types. Thank you, Jim, for the complement! It means much coming from one of the founding fathers of the Forum! (Not trying to show your age or anything- ). I had forgotten about the riding swords and their somewhat whimsical dsigns. Very well placed and definitely a good possibility. I do have to read up on those amazing sword types from that era. Fernando, you were very astute to point out the stamp. Even I had blundered past it when this thread was originally posted. Is there any possibility that flower could be a tulip? (Dutch tip of the hat again. Sorry, can't get past those lions ). Jim pointed out the lentricular blade pattern. Was this type used on Brit swords? Dutch? German? Also, the iron hilt being chizeled/cut and not forged. Does this point to an attribution? Jim, you are right, we need Jasper or Michael on this one! Or perhaps someone else? Where are the forumites hiding-

4th May 2014, 12:02 PM	#6
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Thanks a lot for your detailed and knowing comments! Concerning the surrounding of Gottfried Leygebe there is a similar sword in Seitz Blankwaffen II attributed to Leygebe and the Rapier (second from above) at Hermann-Historica (http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat52_A.txt) which has a similar crossguard is attributed to the surrounding of Leygebe. On the other hand, the pommel-lion and the position of its legs is quite similar to those of the VOC-swords Mark mentioned, but the VOC-lionhilt-swords normally showing (as far as I saw them) a lion that covers the whole hilt. Also the shape of the flat straps does remember me on northern european/dutch swords from the first half of the 17th cent. This relatively simple blade often occurs at german or middle-european broadswords (Felddegen) of the 17th century, more at simple versions than at officers weapons. But there also are a few examples for nicely crested swords using a simple blade. Anyway, together with your statements I also think that there is a good chance that the sword descended from netherland´ territory. I am excited what Jasper and/or Micheal are thinking. Thanks a lot and best regards, Andi

4th May 2014, 01:08 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great, Jasper or should i say... Great Jasper

4th May 2014, 06:22 PM	#9
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Jasper that´s great!! Thanks a lot! So, do you think as a conclusion that my sword is belonging together in all parts and no historism peace? Best regards, Andi P.S.: I postet another comment before Jasper did. But there is a delay when I am posting. So don´t wonder about the overlaps :-)

4th May 2014, 09:59 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Spectacular, Jasper! Glad you could come in on this one! Andi, you have a fine sword any one of us would be envious to have!