Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

[M ELEY]

I did forget to thank Andi for psoting this fascinating sword! I love pieces from this time period, particularly the early hanger types.

Thank you, Jim, for the complement! It means much coming from one of the founding fathers of the Forum! (Not trying to show your age or anything- ). I had forgotten about the riding swords and their somewhat whimsical dsigns. Very well placed and definitely a good possibility. I do have to read up on those amazing sword types from that era.

Fernando, you were very astute to point out the stamp. Even I had blundered past it when this thread was originally posted. Is there any possibility that flower could be a tulip? (Dutch tip of the hat again. Sorry, can't get past those lions ).

Jim pointed out the lentricular blade pattern. Was this type used on Brit swords? Dutch? German? Also, the iron hilt being chizeled/cut and not forged. Does this point to an attribution? Jim, you are right, we need Jasper or Michael on this one! Or perhaps someone else? Where are the forumites hiding-

[AHorsa]

Thanks a lot for your detailed and knowing comments!

Concerning the surrounding of Gottfried Leygebe there is a similar sword in Seitz Blankwaffen II attributed to Leygebe and the Rapier (second from above) at Hermann-Historica (http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat52_A.txt) which has a similar crossguard is attributed to the surrounding of Leygebe. On the other hand, the pommel-lion and the position of its legs is quite similar to those of the VOC-swords Mark mentioned, but the VOC-lionhilt-swords normally showing (as far as I saw them) a lion that covers the whole hilt. Also the shape of the flat straps does remember me on northern european/dutch swords from the first half of the 17th cent.

This relatively simple blade often occurs at german or middle-european broadswords (Felddegen) of the 17th century, more at simple versions than at officers weapons. But there also are a few examples for nicely crested swords using a simple blade.

Anyway, together with your statements I also think that there is a good chance that the sword descended from netherland´ territory. I am excited what Jasper and/or Micheal are thinking.

Thanks a lot and best regards,
Andi

[cornelistromp]

beautiful field sword, it also has all the characteristics of a Dutch sword.
a lion holding a shield, monster heads on the guillon block spitting out the parry rods. So yes I do think it is Dutch and it can be dated 1640-1650.

In the mid of the 17th C. ,this type of swords were seen as THE sports cars under the swords and were developed between 1640 and 1650. It is the transition period from heavy back swords and long rapiers to the smaller swifter and more efficient small swords.
They can be seen on the civil guard pieces of the dutch painter J.A. Rotius around 1650. Their owners hold pridely their hand around the pommel or grip to highlight the new type of sword .

Given the high quality of iron carving, a link to the medal cutters in Paris can be made, unfortunately this is difficult to prove.

This type is very rare, there are only a few examples known to me.
see pictures.

best,

[fernando]

Great, Jasper or should i say... Great Jasper

[AHorsa]

Jasper that´s great!! Thanks a lot! So, do you think as a conclusion that my sword is belonging together in all parts and no historism peace?

Best regards,
Andi

P.S.: I postet another comment before Jasper did. But there is a delay when I am posting. So don´t wonder about the overlaps :-)

[M ELEY]

Spectacular, Jasper! Glad you could come in on this one! Andi, you have a fine sword any one of us would be envious to have!

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding observations and examples!! Thank you Jasper!
Mark, it looks like your sense toward this being Dutch was perfectly placed, and the more I look at that mark, the more I think it is probably a Dutch mark as well. Your tulip idea I think is quite valid, and though hard for these old eyes to make out, it does seem floral so that makes sense.

Jasper, can you help more with this mark? I know that VOC kamer marks were typically the letter of the town over the VOC, but weren't there 'town' marks much like assay marks used in silversmiths guilds etc? In "Catalog of European Court and Hunting Swords" (Bashford Dean, 1928) there are many of these kinds of cartouches and motifs shown in line drawings, but none that correspond directly . They are much the same in being stamped cartouches though.

[AHorsa]

I found this nice picture which i think describes why the Lion is standing on top of this Monsters. It might be the lion of holland overcoming the waterwolf. The picture is on a map from from 1640, so timely it also would fit. Source: rijnland.net
On the other hand there are similar exampls, which are not attributed to holland. Here is a picture of the Pallasch of Herzog Maximilian I of Bavaria (Source: bayerisches-nationalmuseum.de). It was made in Prague but looks (apart from all these jewels ;-) and the lion at the crossguard) quite similar to the first piece Jasper showed.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

On the other hand there are similar exampls, which are not attributed to holland. Here is a picture of the Pallasch of Herzog Maximilian I of Bavaria (Source: bayerisches-nationalmuseum.de). It was made in Prague but looks (apart from all these jewels ;-) and the lion at the crossguard) quite similar to the first piece Jasper showed.

yes that's right, lion head pommels occurred from the 16th century until the late 18th century in German-speaking countries. particularly on 17th century German and Swiss cavalry sabers.

best,