strange sword

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

I went in that direction first, because of Muslim minorities there.
However the blade is Indian as noticed by rsword and mcDougal.
I don't even think the script is Arabic, but rather Urdu or Farsi...

yep the blade doesn't match the sword thats for sure and does look indian to me..
but the shape and style is from that region.

[Ian]

An interesting composite sword. One wonders why and how a NE Indian/Pakistani blade came to be mounted in this unusal manner and where that occurred. One possibility is a traveler, moving from east to west, and that raises further questions about who that might be (Southern Asian, SE Asian, or European?) and why they would choose to mount the sword in this manner.

Some observations on the blade. I agree that it is most likely NE Indian/Pakistani. The fuller, ricasso, and heavy stamp mark have already been mentioned as most likely from that area. A square end to the blade would be most uncommon for that region. There seems to be consensus that the blade has been shortened to give it the square end. Some ethnic groups in NW India and neighboring areas have been mentioned as groups that use such square-ended blades, however the preference for such blade tips is almost exclusively on straight blades, not curved ones (there are uncommon exceptions on Thai/Lao blades, some Shan blades, and some southern Yunnan examples such as HuSa). The Kachin/Jingpaw in the more northern areas of Burma and Yunnan use only straight-bladed dha/dao with flat ends.

The dha/dao of NW India do not have guards and the length of their hilts on flat-ended blades is quite short (shorter than the hilt on the original post). Similarly, Burmese dha have relatively short hilts and no guard. Shan, Thai/Lao, Cambodian and Vietnamese daab/dao oftenhave longer hilts, and Southern Yunnan, Thai/Lao, Cambodian and Vietnamese swords can have disc guards (similar to the O.P.).

With respect to the hilt, I find it a little surprising that a smooth cylinder of turned wood has been used for the grip. This is not very practical because when such a grip is wet (as from blood or water) it becomes slippery and hard to hold. For this reason hilt surfaces are textured or wrapped in materials that give a firmer grip when wet. Also, a circular grip is the least stable in the hand and likely to twist while being used. Lastly is the small, nondescript pommel of ivory or bone, attached with a pin, that offers no clue to its ethnic origin. To me the hilt has some SE Asian/southern Chinese familiarity but I suspect its assembly had European influence also.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this sword looks most like some of the dao from Vietnam, notably the southern part. There was a lot of trade between Vietnamese ports and the south-eastern coast of India, thus ample opportunity for a sword from NE India to make its way to southern Vietnam. Sea travel would have been a much easier route than traversing India overland to reach SE Asia.

Iain Norman is our resident expert on SE Asian swords and I hope he will stop by and give his opinion here.

[Ian]

Here is a rotated and enLarged picture of the stamp on the ricasso. The blade appears to have some age in line with Jim's estimate. Anyone recognise the stamp? What is the likelihood that this could be a wootz blade? There are areas near the junction of the ricasso and sharpened edge that look promising, and if Jim's date estimate is correct then the chances are good.

.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this sword looks most like some of the dao from Vietnam, notably the southern part. There was a lot of trade between Vietnamese ports and the south-eastern coast of India, thus ample opportunity for a sword from NE India to make its way to southern Vietnam. Sea travel would have been a much easier route than traversing India overland to reach SE Asia.

Sorry Ian,

I am more with Rick (RSWORD) and Jim and think that this sword has its roots in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh but like always I could be wrong. Just my feeling.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry Ian,

I am more with Rick (RSWORD) and Jim and think that this sword has its roots in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh but like always I could be wrong. Just my feeling.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, I respect your extensive knowledge of the SE Asian region and related areas. For that reason, I consulted every reference that I have on hand that is relevant to NE India and the Himalayan areas looking for any similar hilt.

The many and varied tribal groups making up Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradash present a challenge to identify particular sword types in the literature and there are few data from the 18th C. The lack of 18th C information may not be a major problem as several authors indicate that swords pre-1800 were similar to what was observed in the 1800s in the tribal areas. The most frequently encountered swords in NW India were guardless dao carried in an open-faced wooden scabbard or woven wicker sheath. Next most common were swords from (a) Bhutan and Tibet (with small round guards and short hilts) and (b) Burma (Kachin/Jingpho and Burman) which are guardless and have medium length hilts. Occasionally, Indian swords with Mughal tulwar-style hilts are seen, but these seem confined to the more affluent and powerful members of the NW Indian groups. Mention is also made of Chinese swords but these were among the tribal groups in the most northern and remote areas of Arunachal Pradesh.

The hilt on the O.P. here has a fairly large circular guard and longish hilt. The O.P.'s hilt is not typical of Burmese, Kachin, Bhutanese, Tibetan or Chinese styles.

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, I respect your extensive knowledge of the SE Asian region and related areas. For that reason, I consulted every reference that I have on hand that is relevant to NE India and the Himalayan areas looking for any similar hilt.

The many and varied tribal groups making up Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradash present a challenge to identify particular sword types in the literature and there are few data from the 18th C. The lack of 18th C information may not be a major problem as several authors indicate that swords pre-1800 were similar to what was observed in the 1800s in the tribal areas. The most frequently encountered swords in NW India were guardless dao carried in an open-faced wooden scabbard or woven wicker sheath. Next most common were swords from (a) Bhutan and Tibet (with small round guards and short hilts) and (b) Burma (Kachin/Jingpho and Burman) which are guardless and have medium length hilts. Occasionally, Indian swords with Mughal tulwar-style hilts are seen, but these seem confined to the more affluent and powerful members of the NW Indian groups. Mention is also made of Chinese swords but these were among the tribal groups in the most northern and remote areas of Arunachal Pradesh.

The hilt on the O.P. here has a fairly large circular guard and longish hilt. The O.P.'s hilt is not typical of Burmese, Kachin, Bhutanese, Tibetan or Chinese styles.

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

[Patterson25]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.
I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.

There's no need to feel attacked. I trust my friend, who's been dealing with ethnographic blades for ages. And no, I didn't hold the piece in my own hands, but as I said...

Originally Posted by Patterson25

I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

You've read here a lot of comments which coming from versed collectors, your most interesting sword is an oddball, you will know it, it's not a textbook example and only the maker and first owner could say exactly where it was made once, all people here can make only educated guesses, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.
I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

hi Paatterson25. as you have the sword in hand now? some more much more details photos would be in order. im inclined to agree the guard DOES indeed look like a tulwar disk !
lets have some more details. it might be some old Frankenstein work or something more curious..

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

Detlef, it's very interesting that you know this sword. Thank you for sharing your insights. As you say, this is a very unusual assembly that was put together years ago. We can but guess for what purpose, and I agree completely that we may never know where and when and by whom this was done. It has certainly generated some lively discussion here and in former times may have gone on for many pages to rival the infamous "SHAVER COOL" thread.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

The "hengdang" from the Ahom people comes to my mind.

[Sajen]

My friend informed me that the pommel could even be from bone, he was very unsure about the material but it's for sure not some sort of ivory.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The "hengdang" from the Ahom people comes to my mind.

The Ahom migrated from northern Yunnan into Assam and founded a ruling dynasty in the 13thC C.E., which continued into the 18thC. They were early adopters of gunpowder for cannons and small arms. This technological advantage kept them from being overrun by the Mughals and consolidated their power in Assam. Online sources state that the once powerful Ahom have now been largely assimilated into other ethnic groups across the broad region of NE India, including Aranachal Pradesh.

Detlef, I'm not sure what period of history your drawing refers to. It may be trying to represent a time several centuries ago when the Ahom were very powerful and militarily skilled. Looking at the drawing you posted, the sword appears to be a Chinese dao, even having a tunkou just below the hilt. This might have been an actual weapon used in the Ahom army, or it could be artistic license where the artist drew a Chinese dao to fit with the history of where they came from rather than direct knowledge of what weapons they used. There must be extant records in Assam of the armaments used by the Ahom army. Firearms and cannon are emphasized in academic accounts from local authors [1].

I did find a purported picture of an Ahon hendang on Facebook. The sword shown is clearly a Shan dha/daab in typical Shan silver fittings and with a wooden grip.
(Picture attached: Facebook-@TaiAhomCultureAndHeritage Home)

[1] Najan Rajguru. The Ahom Kingdom: Statecraft, military innovation, and its role in South Asian history. International Journal of History 2023; 5(2):315–318.
.

[Ian]

Detlef, I owe you an apology. Here are pictures from an Assam Facebook discussion page showing recently made heng dang. Wooden hilts, including black shiny ones, and a couple with small disc guards! Also, some with tunkou it seems!

I don't know how representative these swords are of traditional Tai Ahon weapons, but I think they do seem to confirm the use of plain wooden hilts and perhaps disc guards on these swords. It would be nice to find some museum specimens with established provenance. However, your Assam designation is in play. Who knew? Amazing what is out there in the digital jungle.
.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

With respect to the hilt, I find it a little surprising that a smooth cylinder of turned wood has been used for the grip. This is not very practical because when such a grip is wet (as from blood or water) it becomes slippery and hard to hold. For this reason hilt surfaces are textured or wrapped in materials that give a firmer grip when wet. Also, a circular grip is the least stable in the hand and likely to twist while being used. Lastly is the small, nondescript pommel of ivory or bone, attached with a pin, that offers no clue to its ethnic origin. To me the hilt has some SE Asian/southern Chinese familiarity but I suspect its assembly had European influence also.

A handle wrapping could get lost over the years, special when it was from cloth.

[Bob A]

Is there any indication of a wrap having been in place on the hilt? Hord to judge from the photos above.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Bob A

Is there any indication of a wrap having been in place on the hilt? Hord to judge from the photos above.

I think that there could have been a wrapping but maybe it was lost long ago.

[Patterson25]

Hi Guys,

First thanks for your comments.
More details to help:
The hilt is made of metal, a tube covered by thick black lacquer.
The pommel is made of walrus ivory or mammoth teeth, and on top an old glass bead.
I posted this sword because it is a strange mix...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Hi Guys,

First thanks for your comments.
More details to help:
The hilt is made of metal, a tube covered by thick black lacquer.
The pommel is made of walrus ivory or mammoth teeth, and on top an old glass bead.
I posted this sword because it is a strange mix...

Can you provide some close-ups from the hilt and from the pommel please?

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Hi Guys,

First thanks for your comments.
More details to help:
The hilt is made of metal, a tube covered by thick black lacquer.
The pommel is made of walrus ivory or mammoth teeth, and on top an old glass bead.
I posted this sword because it is a strange mix...

Patterson25, this is important information that was omitted earlier. If you are looking for an answer for this unusual sword, then it helps to have all the data. Additional information that would be useful is the length of the hilt and blade, and the blade width and thickness at the hilt and tip. Also, does the blade taper in thickness from ricasso to tip.

The presence of a cylindrical metal grip is significant. Is this metal iron (magnetic) or non-ferrous (non-magnetic)? The covering with "lacquer" implies the use of a resin that may have been "tacky" originally and perhaps aided grip oif the hilt. It may also have added some protection of the hilt from wear and tear or other damage. The use of black resin was common in parts of mainland SE Asia, perhaps also to improve the grip or conceal any reflections from the hilt materials. It was widely used on wooden scabbards as well.

I had two Vietnamese swords that were heavily endowed with black resin over the grip, and similar use of resin on some Thai, Lao, and Cambodian swords. All of these examples had an underlying wrap (rattan strips, metal wire, occasionally brass fittings) over a wooden core.

Resin is also seen on the grips of some NW Indian groups, and the Naga are a notable group with resin on the grip of their traditional dao. These grips tend to have a hard, smooth, and often shiny appearance.

As far as the material of the pommel, if this is marine ivory then that might favor an origin close to the coast rather than the landlocked areas of NE India, Bhutan, and Tibet. Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between elephant ivory and marine ivory. A fossilized mammoth tooth seems unlikely..