strange sword

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry Ian,

I am more with Rick (RSWORD) and Jim and think that this sword has its roots in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh but like always I could be wrong. Just my feeling.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, I respect your extensive knowledge of the SE Asian region and related areas. For that reason, I consulted every reference that I have on hand that is relevant to NE India and the Himalayan areas looking for any similar hilt.

The many and varied tribal groups making up Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradash present a challenge to identify particular sword types in the literature and there are few data from the 18th C. The lack of 18th C information may not be a major problem as several authors indicate that swords pre-1800 were similar to what was observed in the 1800s in the tribal areas. The most frequently encountered swords in NW India were guardless dao carried in an open-faced wooden scabbard or woven wicker sheath. Next most common were swords from (a) Bhutan and Tibet (with small round guards and short hilts) and (b) Burma (Kachin/Jingpho and Burman) which are guardless and have medium length hilts. Occasionally, Indian swords with Mughal tulwar-style hilts are seen, but these seem confined to the more affluent and powerful members of the NW Indian groups. Mention is also made of Chinese swords but these were among the tribal groups in the most northern and remote areas of Arunachal Pradesh.

The hilt on the O.P. here has a fairly large circular guard and longish hilt. The O.P.'s hilt is not typical of Burmese, Kachin, Bhutanese, Tibetan or Chinese styles.

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, I respect your extensive knowledge of the SE Asian region and related areas. For that reason, I consulted every reference that I have on hand that is relevant to NE India and the Himalayan areas looking for any similar hilt.

The many and varied tribal groups making up Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradash present a challenge to identify particular sword types in the literature and there are few data from the 18th C. The lack of 18th C information may not be a major problem as several authors indicate that swords pre-1800 were similar to what was observed in the 1800s in the tribal areas. The most frequently encountered swords in NW India were guardless dao carried in an open-faced wooden scabbard or woven wicker sheath. Next most common were swords from (a) Bhutan and Tibet (with small round guards and short hilts) and (b) Burma (Kachin/Jingpho and Burman) which are guardless and have medium length hilts. Occasionally, Indian swords with Mughal tulwar-style hilts are seen, but these seem confined to the more affluent and powerful members of the NW Indian groups. Mention is also made of Chinese swords but these were among the tribal groups in the most northern and remote areas of Arunachal Pradesh.

The hilt on the O.P. here has a fairly large circular guard and longish hilt. The O.P.'s hilt is not typical of Burmese, Kachin, Bhutanese, Tibetan or Chinese styles.

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

[Patterson25]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.
I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.

There's no need to feel attacked. I trust my friend, who's been dealing with ethnographic blades for ages. And no, I didn't hold the piece in my own hands, but as I said...

Originally Posted by Patterson25

I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

You've read here a lot of comments which coming from versed collectors, your most interesting sword is an oddball, you will know it, it's not a textbook example and only the maker and first owner could say exactly where it was made once, all people here can make only educated guesses, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.
I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

hi Paatterson25. as you have the sword in hand now? some more much more details photos would be in order. im inclined to agree the guard DOES indeed look like a tulwar disk !
lets have some more details. it might be some old Frankenstein work or something more curious..

[Tim Simmons]

My comments were not to stiffle debate, more that many uninformed people can have quite strident oppions. Which can be exhausting at times.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

My comments were not to stiffle debate, more that many uninformed people can have quite strident oppions. Which can be exhausting at times.

Whom do you mean?

[Tim Simmons]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Whom do you mean?

No one in particular. However they are out there. I have not had it here for at least two decades.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

Detlef, it's very interesting that you know this sword. Thank you for sharing your insights. As you say, this is a very unusual assembly that was put together years ago. We can but guess for what purpose, and I agree completely that we may never know where and when and by whom this was done. It has certainly generated some lively discussion here and in former times may have gone on for many pages to rival the infamous "SHAVER COOL" thread.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

The "hengdang" from the Ahom people comes to my mind.

[Sajen]

My friend informed me that the pommel could even be from bone, he was very unsure about the material but it's for sure not some sort of ivory.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The "hengdang" from the Ahom people comes to my mind.

The Ahom migrated from northern Yunnan into Assam and founded a ruling dynasty in the 13thC C.E., which continued into the 18thC. They were early adopters of gunpowder for cannons and small arms. This technological advantage kept them from being overrun by the Mughals and consolidated their power in Assam. Online sources state that the once powerful Ahom have now been largely assimilated into other ethnic groups across the broad region of NE India, including Aranachal Pradesh.

Detlef, I'm not sure what period of history your drawing refers to. It may be trying to represent a time several centuries ago when the Ahom were very powerful and militarily skilled. Looking at the drawing you posted, the sword appears to be a Chinese dao, even having a tunkou just below the hilt. This might have been an actual weapon used in the Ahom army, or it could be artistic license where the artist drew a Chinese dao to fit with the history of where they came from rather than direct knowledge of what weapons they used. There must be extant records in Assam of the armaments used by the Ahom army. Firearms and cannon are emphasized in academic accounts from local authors [1].

I did find a purported picture of an Ahon hendang on Facebook. The sword shown is clearly a Shan dha/daab in typical Shan silver fittings and with a wooden grip.
(Picture attached: Facebook-@TaiAhomCultureAndHeritage Home)

[1] Najan Rajguru. The Ahom Kingdom: Statecraft, military innovation, and its role in South Asian history. International Journal of History 2023; 5(2):315–318.
.

[Ian]

Detlef, I owe you an apology. Here are pictures from an Assam Facebook discussion page showing recently made heng dang. Wooden hilts, including black shiny ones, and a couple with small disc guards! Also, some with tunkou it seems!

I don't know how representative these swords are of traditional Tai Ahon weapons, but I think they do seem to confirm the use of plain wooden hilts and perhaps disc guards on these swords. It would be nice to find some museum specimens with established provenance. However, your Assam designation is in play. Who knew? Amazing what is out there in the digital jungle.
.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, I owe you an apology. Here are pictures from an Assam Facebook discussion page showing recently made heng dang. Wooden hilts, including black shiny ones, and a couple with small disc guards! Also, some with tunkou it seems!

There's nothing to apologize for, we all learn something new every day, that's what the forum is there for!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I don't want to say that the sword in question is a hengdang, I only want to show that you can find long handled swords in the region.

A few pictures of hengdang, found online.

First picture is titeld "Ahom hengdang and sword".