Sword for identification

Ian · Today, 09:47 AM

ausjulius, I see where you are coming from. However, Yuri has gone to some trouble to show us why this isn't "just another tourist piece." While the workmanship is low quality, Yuri has identified a particular Shi'ite association that is interesting and seemingly well substantiated. That places his sword within the sphere of an ethnographic item used within a particular culture for a particular purpose, and not primarily made for sale to outsiders.

Jim McDougall · Today, 04:05 PM

Perfectly said Ian, and I very much agree, Yuri has presented very well supported research and views which concur elementally with Oliver's observations. Frankly his perspectives on arms, especially Caucasian, reflect many decades of tenacious research and experience and render them in my opinion, essentially irrefutable.

The often cavalier use or application of the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms to many examples of ethnographic weapons fails to recognize the traditional use of many forms authentically in various cultural and religious contexts.

Anecdotally, one similar instance comes from the weapons of the Mahdist era in Sudan with bold thuluth calligraphy acid etched on many weapons, most notably the ubiquitous kaskara broadswords. For many years these were dismissed as souvenirs brought back by British soldiers from the campaigns there from there ended largely with Omdurman (1898). The acid etched script was deemed mostly an 'arabesque' application and thought of course, 'jibberish'. In the example posted, as not personally initiated in the Arabic language, I can only presume the content of the script in this example.

Despite the usual consternation, research has revealed that this script, often indeed used in a decorative sense in certain situations, was in fact a more elementary form (more familiar to those not necessarily literate). Actually there are actual Quranic phrases etc. used in repetition, and in many cases other authentic invocations entwined in similar manner.

The point is that while not exclusively the case, the larger number of these weapons were indeed authentically in use by Ansar tribesmen, and the assessment of the inscriptions based on assumption were largely invalid.

In the case of this sword, its likely use as an element of important stature in the Sacred Ceremony of Shi'a Faith, and the variations in inscription character can be well explained circumstantially.

Pertinax · Today, 04:56 PM

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Today, 04:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Perfectly said Ian, and I very much agree, Yuri has presented very well supported research and views which concur elementally with Oliver's observations. Frankly his perspectives on arms, especially Caucasian, reflect many decades of tenacious research and experience and render them in my opinion, essentially irrefutable. The often cavalier use or application of the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms to many examples of ethnographic weapons fails to recognize the traditional use of many forms authentically in various cultural and religious contexts. Anecdotally, one similar instance comes from the weapons of the Mahdist era in Sudan with bold thuluth calligraphy acid etched on many weapons, most notably the ubiquitous kaskara broadswords. For many years these were dismissed as souvenirs brought back by British soldiers from the campaigns there from there ended largely with Omdurman (1898). The acid etched script was deemed mostly an 'arabesque' application and thought of course, 'jibberish'. In the example posted, as not personally initiated in the Arabic language, I can only presume the content of the script in this example. Despite the usual consternation, research has revealed that this script, often indeed used in a decorative sense in certain situations, was in fact a more elementary form (more familiar to those not necessarily literate). Actually there are actual Quranic phrases etc. used in repetition, and in many cases other authentic invocations entwined in similar manner. The point is that while not exclusively the case, the larger number of these weapons were indeed authentically in use by Ansar tribesmen, and the assessment of the inscriptions based on assumption were largely invalid. In the case of this sword, its likely use as an element of important stature in the Sacred Ceremony of Shi'a Faith, and the variations in inscription character can be well explained circumstantially. Attached Images

Today, 09:47 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	ausjulius, I see where you are coming from. However, Yuri has gone to some trouble to show us why this isn't "just another tourist piece." While the workmanship is low quality, Yuri has identified a particular Shi'ite association that is interesting and seemingly well substantiated. That places his sword within the sphere of an ethnographic item used within a particular culture for a particular purpose, and not primarily made for sale to outsiders.