A hunting knife for comments

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Hello,

I think a part of a pipe-back blade was repurposed in the 19th century here. For me it is difficult to say where and when exactly the dagger was made, but it doesn't look like a typical German or French piece.

Regards
Robin

Precisely my opinion too!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Precisely my opinion too!

Mulțumiri, Mario .
So the blade is one of a 1822 British sword. I am still considering readline assumption that this knife was mounted in India. I wish i saw some examples of such setups to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Jim McDougall]

Just to add a few things, blades of this type cross section were often referred to as 'pipe back' or 'ram rod' and seem to have first appeared noticeably in the latter 18th into 19th c. in England. This was a period of innovation as types of blades and sword patterns were being tested and becoming the first of various regulation patterns there.

The ramrod (pipe back) blade I have is unusual in that it is dramatically parabolic in its shamshir like curve, and is an early variation of the M1796 light cavalry saber, probably c. 1795-1805.
These ramrod blades became popular on a number of British sabers, but as noted it did become known on M1822 officers sabers for infantry and remained on many until c. 1840s.

Interestingly, this 'pipe back' type blade reappeared in Germany on swords from c.1870s along with the 'yelman' tips (expanded point).

The fabrication of this knife, recalling the 'hirschfanger' (hunting sword) form of Europe, primarily Germany with stag horn suggests of course possible repurposing there. The scabbard seems fashioned out of a military type which indeed does resemble British examples, except with the carry ring on the throat.

With these things considered, it is hard to say exactly when and where this was fabricated, but these notes on the components are established.

The photo is of the parabolic saber with ramrod blade c. 1795-1805
The images of German cavalry sabers are from "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Eduard Wagner, Prague, 1967, and the blades are described as 'round back'.

[fernando]

Thank you for your input, Jim.
As a curiosity, let me here show the Portuguese version of the 1822 pipe back, mounted with a Queen Dona Maria II (1834-1853) guard.
It is said to be known that, despite its round back (cota) this sword pattern was fragile. To confirm that, this specific blade was (also) broken by one third of its extension.

(Courtesy As Armas e os Barões by Eduardo Nobre)

.

[Jim McDougall]

MOST interesting! as always Fernando.
It seems that the Portuguese had a profound presence with their own versions of many sword types, and it is great that you furnish so much material on this important dynamic. I honestly would never have known of these Portuguese versions of what has become known as the British 'Gothic hilt'.

It seems that these M1822 hilts with incorporated cartouche were produced by a number of sword makers in England , especially Wilkinson of course (after 1850s). It seems that the hilts were made in the same form but often using various cyphers and symbols or badges in the cartouche.

Interesting that these were regarded as 'fragile' but these primarily infantry swords were actually never thought of as particularly 'combat' oriented.

It does seem that there are numerous contexts which the blade of this knife might have originated.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Interesting that these were regarded as 'fragile' but these primarily infantry swords were actually never thought of as particularly 'combat' oriented...

Jim, do you mean to say that infantry swords were not meant for combat, or this pattern in particular ?
Call it a flaw from the abovementioned book author but, in fact, Queen Dona Maria II reigned twice, the first period between 1826-1828, ended by an uprise followed by a Civil War, that lasted until 1834.
This would give place for a 1822 (pipe-back) sword hilted with this Queen cartouche to be present in such episodes and break in combat; or as well be broken for another zillion reasons.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, do you mean to say that infantry swords were not meant for combat, or this pattern in particular ?
Call it a flaw from the abovementioned book author but, in fact, Queen Dona Maria II reigned twice, the first period between 1826-1828, ended by an uprise followed by a Civil War, that lasted until 1834.
This would give place for a 1822 (pipe-back) sword hilted with this Queen cartouche to be present in such episodes and break in combat; or as well be broken for another zillion reasons.

No, what I meant was that infantry did not really carry swords after 1780s (British), but these were officers swords. These were typically regarded as secondary of course, and to direct etc. Officers were not expected to participate in combat, but there were of course exceptions.

I dont think this adaption was from a blade broken in combat or that sort of situation, but swords in those days were not especially regarded as practical.
However , the blades were valued, and of course cut down for use in knife form.
The sword was essentially obsolete in the 19th c in the US, which was the reason for extra large Bowies, and the espada anchas in Mexico. While swords were still worn, actual use was incidental.

Turning to Scotland, after Culloden (1746) swords were prohibited....however, dirks were considered utility and OK to use for hunting etc...........which is what happened to many of the famed Highland basket hilts. It was not from being broken in combat.

As noted, this distinctive type 'round back' blade was not especially common, but known in early British sabers (not just infantry) until about 1840s..they were seen on German sabers c. 1870s-80s, and these swords were used into WWI period.

The blade here seems from the upper section of the blade, reprofiled tip. I cannot think of any bayonet with ramrod back blade, and would welcome any information on such types.