A hunting knife for comments

Gonzoadler · 5th November 2021, 08:46 AM

Hello,

I think a part of a pipe-back blade was repurposed in the 19th century here. For me it is difficult to say where and when exactly the dagger was made, but it doesn't look like a typical German or French piece.

Regards
Robin

fernando · 5th November 2021, 06:00 PM

Thanks again for your judgements.
I can now follow Robin's assumption that this would be a cut down part of a first quarter XIX century pipe-back sword blade; the back part, that is. I was skeptical of it being the tip section, as first suggested, due to its sturdy structure.
I understand that they copy European style hunting knives in India for British customers, and not only, but i find it hard to digest that the guard+scabbard in this one do not come from somewhere in Europe.

mariusgmioc · 6th November 2021, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Hello,

I think a part of a pipe-back blade was repurposed in the 19th century here. For me it is difficult to say where and when exactly the dagger was made, but it doesn't look like a typical German or French piece.

Regards
Robin

Precisely my opinion too!

fernando · 6th November 2021, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Precisely my opinion too!

Mulțumiri, Mario

.
So the blade is one of a 1822 British sword. I am still considering readline assumption that this knife was mounted in India. I wish i saw some examples of such setups to give the benefit of the doubt.

Jim McDougall · 6th November 2021, 05:17 PM

Just to add a few things, blades of this type cross section were often referred to as 'pipe back' or 'ram rod' and seem to have first appeared noticeably in the latter 18th into 19th c. in England. This was a period of innovation as types of blades and sword patterns were being tested and becoming the first of various regulation patterns there.

The ramrod (pipe back) blade I have is unusual in that it is dramatically parabolic in its shamshir like curve, and is an early variation of the M1796 light cavalry saber, probably c. 1795-1805.
These ramrod blades became popular on a number of British sabers, but as noted it did become known on M1822 officers sabers for infantry and remained on many until c. 1840s.

Interestingly, this 'pipe back' type blade reappeared in Germany on swords from c.1870s along with the 'yelman' tips (expanded point).

The fabrication of this knife, recalling the 'hirschfanger' (hunting sword) form of Europe, primarily Germany with stag horn suggests of course possible repurposing there. The scabbard seems fashioned out of a military type which indeed does resemble British examples, except with the carry ring on the throat.

With these things considered, it is hard to say exactly when and where this was fabricated, but these notes on the components are established.

The photo is of the parabolic saber with ramrod blade c. 1795-1805
The images of German cavalry sabers are from "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Eduard Wagner, Prague, 1967, and the blades are described as 'round back'.

fernando · 6th November 2021, 07:15 PM

Thank you for your input, Jim.
As a curiosity, let me here show the Portuguese version of the 1822 pipe back, mounted with a Queen Dona Maria II (1834-1853) guard.
It is said to be known that, despite its round back (cota) this sword pattern was fragile. To confirm that, this specific blade was (also) broken by one third of its extension.

(Courtesy As Armas e os Barões by Eduardo Nobre)

.

Jim McDougall · 6th November 2021, 09:08 PM

MOST interesting! as always Fernando.
It seems that the Portuguese had a profound presence with their own versions of many sword types, and it is great that you furnish so much material on this important dynamic. I honestly would never have known of these Portuguese versions of what has become known as the British 'Gothic hilt'.

It seems that these M1822 hilts with incorporated cartouche were produced by a number of sword makers in England , especially Wilkinson of course (after 1850s). It seems that the hilts were made in the same form but often using various cyphers and symbols or badges in the cartouche.

Interesting that these were regarded as 'fragile' but these primarily infantry swords were actually never thought of as particularly 'combat' oriented.

It does seem that there are numerous contexts which the blade of this knife might have originated.

fernando · 7th November 2021, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Interesting that these were regarded as 'fragile' but these primarily infantry swords were actually never thought of as particularly 'combat' oriented...

Jim, do you mean to say that infantry swords were not meant for combat, or this pattern in particular ?
Call it a flaw from the abovementioned book author but, in fact, Queen Dona Maria II reigned twice, the first period between 1826-1828, ended by an uprise followed by a Civil War, that lasted until 1834.
This would give place for a 1822 (pipe-back) sword hilted with this Queen cartouche to be present in such episodes and break in combat; or as well be broken for another zillion reasons.

5th November 2021, 08:46 AM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Hello, I think a part of a pipe-back blade was repurposed in the 19th century here. For me it is difficult to say where and when exactly the dagger was made, but it doesn't look like a typical German or French piece. Regards Robin Attached Images Last edited by Gonzoadler; 5th November 2021 at 11:08 AM.

6th November 2021, 05:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Just to add a few things, blades of this type cross section were often referred to as 'pipe back' or 'ram rod' and seem to have first appeared noticeably in the latter 18th into 19th c. in England. This was a period of innovation as types of blades and sword patterns were being tested and becoming the first of various regulation patterns there. The ramrod (pipe back) blade I have is unusual in that it is dramatically parabolic in its shamshir like curve, and is an early variation of the M1796 light cavalry saber, probably c. 1795-1805. These ramrod blades became popular on a number of British sabers, but as noted it did become known on M1822 officers sabers for infantry and remained on many until c. 1840s. Interestingly, this 'pipe back' type blade reappeared in Germany on swords from c.1870s along with the 'yelman' tips (expanded point). The fabrication of this knife, recalling the 'hirschfanger' (hunting sword) form of Europe, primarily Germany with stag horn suggests of course possible repurposing there. The scabbard seems fashioned out of a military type which indeed does resemble British examples, except with the carry ring on the throat. With these things considered, it is hard to say exactly when and where this was fabricated, but these notes on the components are established. The photo is of the parabolic saber with ramrod blade c. 1795-1805 The images of German cavalry sabers are from "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Eduard Wagner, Prague, 1967, and the blades are described as 'round back'. Attached Images

6th November 2021, 07:15 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Coincidence ... Thank you for your input, Jim. As a curiosity, let me here show the Portuguese version of the 1822 pipe back, mounted with a Queen Dona Maria II (1834-1853) guard. It is said to be known that, despite its round back (cota) this sword pattern was fragile. To confirm that, this specific blade was (also) broken by one third of its extension. (Courtesy As Armas e os Barões by Eduardo Nobre) . Attached Images

5th November 2021, 06:00 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks again for your judgements. I can now follow Robin's assumption that this would be a cut down part of a first quarter XIX century pipe-back sword blade; the back part, that is. I was skeptical of it being the tip section, as first suggested, due to its sturdy structure. I understand that they copy European style hunting knives in India for British customers, and not only, but i find it hard to digest that the guard+scabbard in this one do not come from somewhere in Europe.

6th November 2021, 09:08 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	MOST interesting! as always Fernando. It seems that the Portuguese had a profound presence with their own versions of many sword types, and it is great that you furnish so much material on this important dynamic. I honestly would never have known of these Portuguese versions of what has become known as the British 'Gothic hilt'. It seems that these M1822 hilts with incorporated cartouche were produced by a number of sword makers in England , especially Wilkinson of course (after 1850s). It seems that the hilts were made in the same form but often using various cyphers and symbols or badges in the cartouche. Interesting that these were regarded as 'fragile' but these primarily infantry swords were actually never thought of as particularly 'combat' oriented. It does seem that there are numerous contexts which the blade of this knife might have originated.