Keris Combong with markings

David · 18th September 2021, 09:27 PM

Welcome to the forum!
That does seem to always be the question when we encounter keris that claim to be complong (combong), is it true complong?
For my money to be assessed "true", complong must be a matter of intentional forging. So this rules out holes in sogokan worn through by years of acid washing or slits in the blade from weld failures.
When i look at yours i'm on the fence a bit. The slit in the blade does seem to trace along a weld split. But if that is the case it appears to have been widened and made large on purpose. I suppose it is possible that this open seem was always in the mind of the smith from the get-go. Or it might have been ab after-thought. The weld failed, he couldn't fix it, so he made the best of it and enlarged it to look intentional. Another possibility is that this weld failed after a time and someone came along and decided to make the best of it and turn this into a complong blade. I don't think knowing for sure is possible, which brings us back to belief, a concept upon which many assessments in the keris world are based.

A. G. Maisey · 18th September 2021, 11:05 PM

The way I was taught to understand complong was that it could be either an intentionally forged hole or gap ("complong" (Jav.) simply means "hole or gap or opening") or one that has been developed through the passing of time.

If it has been developed through the passing of time it has developed because time and its effects are an aspect of God, thus if this complong has any power, that power comes from God.

If the complong was intentionally forged, then that is a complong that has been created by man, so if it has any power, that power depends upon the power of the man who forged it.

Do we trust the power of God, or the power of man?

Then again, some complong are simply the result of bad luck or of incompetence on the part of the man who forged the keris.

How do we distinguish between God, intention, and incompetence?

morel5000 · 19th September 2021, 05:59 PM

Thank you very much, David and A.G. Maisey. Never looked at it that way. Looking at the way the grain of the iron flows, I think it was there during forging. Intentionally? I don't know.

What about the markings? Do they shed any more light on the Keris?

A. G. Maisey · 20th September 2021, 01:15 AM

I can see something that looks like the remains of markings, but I cannot make much of it, one of these markings looks a bit like erosion of a lamination.

Sorry, I cannot give any opinion on these marks.

With the complong, yeah, certainly it was a cold shut , and when the base of the blade was forged out it opened up. But in my book it makes no real difference.

Whatever one believes will work, will, in fact work --- just maybe not because of the reason that is believed in.

David · 20th September 2021, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

With the complong, yeah, certainly it was a cold shut , and when the base of the blade was forged out it opened up. But in my book it makes no real difference.

Whatever one believes will work, will, in fact work --- just maybe not because of the reason that is believed in.

Based upon your experience Alan do you believe this cold shut would have then been worked further to open it up more? It seems pretty wide to have accidentally reached this form. My feeling is that the cold shut formed and then the smith decided to exaggerate it it make it complong.

A. G. Maisey · 20th September 2021, 09:24 PM

Sorry David, I have no way in which to form opinion.

If I look at the grain of the iron, it does not appear to be broken, the same grain line flows through, as far as I can see. I suppose it is possible that the smith might have driven a chisel down into a smaller split and made it bigger, or even some owner might have done the same.

It is an old blade, it has had a lot of owners, anything is possible.

David · 21st September 2021, 01:04 PM

Thanks Alan.

oariff · 30th May 2024, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Based upon your experience Alan do you believe this cold shut would have then been worked further to open it up more? It seems pretty wide to have accidentally reached this form. My feeling is that the cold shut formed and then the smith decided to exaggerate it it make it complong.

Hi All,

What is your opinion on this complong? Power of God or Power of Man?

Cheers.

drdavid · 30th May 2024, 07:40 AM

I'm not entirely sure the smaller section next to the gap was originally part of this keris, the sheen on the surface seems much duller, the garap on the greneng is a bit less crisp and the pamor lines dont seem to line up particularly well. Of course that may all be a function of oil on the keris, lighting in the photograph etc. If it is original then I suspect there has been some human intervention as there seems to be a little buckle in the metal at the far end of the complong
DrD

18th September 2021, 11:05 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The way I was taught to understand complong was that it could be either an intentionally forged hole or gap ("complong" (Jav.) simply means "hole or gap or opening") or one that has been developed through the passing of time. If it has been developed through the passing of time it has developed because time and its effects are an aspect of God, thus if this complong has any power, that power comes from God. If the complong was intentionally forged, then that is a complong that has been created by man, so if it has any power, that power depends upon the power of the man who forged it. Do we trust the power of God, or the power of man? Then again, some complong are simply the result of bad luck or of incompetence on the part of the man who forged the keris. How do we distinguish between God, intention, and incompetence? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 19th September 2021 at 06:43 AM. Reason: missing word

18th September 2021, 09:27 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Welcome to the forum! That does seem to always be the question when we encounter keris that claim to be complong (combong), is it true complong? For my money to be assessed "true", complong must be a matter of intentional forging. So this rules out holes in sogokan worn through by years of acid washing or slits in the blade from weld failures. When i look at yours i'm on the fence a bit. The slit in the blade does seem to trace along a weld split. But if that is the case it appears to have been widened and made large on purpose. I suppose it is possible that this open seem was always in the mind of the smith from the get-go. Or it might have been ab after-thought. The weld failed, he couldn't fix it, so he made the best of it and enlarged it to look intentional. Another possibility is that this weld failed after a time and someone came along and decided to make the best of it and turn this into a complong blade. I don't think knowing for sure is possible, which brings us back to belief, a concept upon which many assessments in the keris world are based.

19th September 2021, 05:59 PM	#3
morel5000 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 12	Thank you very much, David and A.G. Maisey. Never looked at it that way. Looking at the way the grain of the iron flows, I think it was there during forging. Intentionally? I don't know. What about the markings? Do they shed any more light on the Keris?

20th September 2021, 01:15 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I can see something that looks like the remains of markings, but I cannot make much of it, one of these markings looks a bit like erosion of a lamination. Sorry, I cannot give any opinion on these marks. With the complong, yeah, certainly it was a cold shut , and when the base of the blade was forged out it opened up. But in my book it makes no real difference. Whatever one believes will work, will, in fact work --- just maybe not because of the reason that is believed in.

20th September 2021, 09:24 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Sorry David, I have no way in which to form opinion. If I look at the grain of the iron, it does not appear to be broken, the same grain line flows through, as far as I can see. I suppose it is possible that the smith might have driven a chisel down into a smaller split and made it bigger, or even some owner might have done the same. It is an old blade, it has had a lot of owners, anything is possible.

21st September 2021, 01:04 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Alan.

30th May 2024, 07:40 AM	#9
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	I'm not entirely sure the smaller section next to the gap was originally part of this keris, the sheen on the surface seems much duller, the garap on the greneng is a bit less crisp and the pamor lines dont seem to line up particularly well. Of course that may all be a function of oil on the keris, lighting in the photograph etc. If it is original then I suspect there has been some human intervention as there seems to be a little buckle in the metal at the far end of the complong DrD