Kaskara in Silver Dress: an essay for comment and discussion by Ed Hunley

Kubur · 21st July 2018, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Dear Kubur,

If I missed any important or relevent reference, please let me know. Anything to expand our knowledge will be helpful.

Regards,
Ed

Dear Ed,

You have plently in any catalogue such as Hales, the MET...
Just look at Ricketts, 1988, he mentions the swords of the Darfur and the ones at the Royal armouries (Richardson)...
...

Edster · 21st July 2018, 02:25 PM

Dear Kubur,

Thanks for the references. I tried the on-line MET, but the only photo they had was of the snake double pommel sword, but it wasn't as good as the one Teodor supplied. Ricketts, 1988 looks great, but I don't have access to it. I'll try to get bootleg access via libgen.io. I'd appreciate if you could scan & post the Darfur sword sections. Its difficult for casual researchers to get access to a good reference library without spending a bundle. I'm beginning to think that Darfur may be the birthplace of the Kaskara or at least the key location to its development.

Our inquiry is hampered because mostly we see in books "full face" photos of swords and particularly quillons. We need to be able to handle them and see and photograph from different angles to appreciate their 3-D qualities.

On a separate note, I recently found an 1838 reference to the cross & orb with a lion sword makers mark. Its in Travels in Kordofan by Ignatius Pallme, London 1844. Not a very good cut and paste below. Also note the preferred Death's-head mark by Peter Knell. I'm not familiar with that one.

“Two-edged swords, of Austrian manufacture, are thirty-six inches and a half in length, and one inch and three-quarters in breadth, of equal diameter throughout, and rounded off inferiorly. Seven inches and a quarter in the curve, and marked: 5 with a lion. Thescabbardsandhiltsaremadeinthecountry. They areinmostrequestinDarfour. Thesaleisattendedwithcon siderable profit, but those marked with a death's-head from the workshops of Peter Knell, in Solingen, are preferred. “ (Note: The “5” in the text above in the cross & orb symbol in the original.)

Below are great references I used, but forgot to include in the previous reply to you. They are key to the silver grips of both diamond and star & comet motifs.

“Royal Regalia: a sword of the last Sultan of Darfur, Ali Dinar” J. Anderson, A. Ali Mohaned, et al, Sudan and Nubia, The Sudan Archaeological Research Society, Bulletin No. 20, 2016

Ancient Treasures exhibition from the Sudan National Museum, 2004, The British Museum. D. Welsby & J. Anderson. It shows the 1762 Nasir Mohamed Funj sword. I didn't use the image in the essay because a better one was available elsewhere.

Regards,
Ed

Edster · 21st July 2018, 04:46 PM

Ian,

Great example. Its a new one for me. High-end Beja, my guess. BTW how did you lift (cut & paste) the photos from the web site and to post on a thread? I couldn't make it happen.

Ed

fernando · 21st July 2018, 05:09 PM

Has this beautiful example already been sold, Ian ?

.

Ian · 21st July 2018, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Has this beautiful example already been sold, Ian ?

.

I don't know Fernando. There appears to be no way to purchase it online at the web site. I looked at the site as carefully as a non-German speaker can, and tried to determine if it was still for sale. Perhaps your German is better than mine. I will soft delete for now until the status can be confirmed.

BTW, does the date 04-07-2018 mean July 4, 2018 or April 7, 2018 in Europe? I'm always getting confused by these different date formats.

Ian

fernando · 21st July 2018, 05:52 PM

My German is absolute zero, but the page translates automatically into Portuguese as i open it. The way i see it, it has a (fixed) price still open for sale, reason why i asked, expecting to be wrong.

Oliver Pinchot · 21st July 2018, 06:01 PM

Well done, Ed. Solid and well-written paper which establishes a viable typology.

The Funj sword no longer appears in the British Museum database.
Does anyone know the acquisition date?

fernando · 21st July 2018, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

BTW, does the date 04-07-2018 mean July 4, 2018 or April 7, 2018 in Europe? I'm always getting confused by these different date formats.

We never had the "July 4" format. We write day/month/year, like 04/07/2018, or skip the zeros (4/7/2018) or even shorten the year( 4/7/18). All those formats are consuetudinary.
However we are now converging to one only system, putting the year in the first place, the month in second and the day in the end (2018/07/04); we already find many blank forms with the corresponding spaces pre-formated ... and even legended. Whether this new system is legally obliging and is European and not only Portuguese, i would have to check.

kai · 21st July 2018, 09:28 PM

Hello Fernando,

Quote:

However we are now converging to one only system, putting the year in the first place, the month in second and the day in the end (2018/07/04); we already find many blank forms with the corresponding spaces pre-formated ... and even legended. Whether this new system is legally obliging and is European and not only Portuguese, i would have to check.

Nothing binding yet AFAIK - I see it often in scientific contexts; it certainly allows for much better sorting! (Commonly given as 2018-07-04, possibly to differentiate it from the other notions involving slashes or dots as in 4.7.2018 ...)

BTW, Ian, does it matter? (Both dates being in the past...)

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 21st July 2018, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Ian,

... BTW how did you lift (cut & paste) the photos from the web site and to post on a thread? I couldn't make it happen.

Ed

Ed, you have a PM.

Ian

21st July 2018, 02:25 PM	#2
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Dear Kubur, Thanks for the references. I tried the on-line MET, but the only photo they had was of the snake double pommel sword, but it wasn't as good as the one Teodor supplied. Ricketts, 1988 looks great, but I don't have access to it. I'll try to get bootleg access via libgen.io. I'd appreciate if you could scan & post the Darfur sword sections. Its difficult for casual researchers to get access to a good reference library without spending a bundle. I'm beginning to think that Darfur may be the birthplace of the Kaskara or at least the key location to its development. Our inquiry is hampered because mostly we see in books "full face" photos of swords and particularly quillons. We need to be able to handle them and see and photograph from different angles to appreciate their 3-D qualities. On a separate note, I recently found an 1838 reference to the cross & orb with a lion sword makers mark. Its in Travels in Kordofan by Ignatius Pallme, London 1844. Not a very good cut and paste below. Also note the preferred Death's-head mark by Peter Knell. I'm not familiar with that one. “Two-edged swords, of Austrian manufacture, are thirty-six inches and a half in length, and one inch and three-quarters in breadth, of equal diameter throughout, and rounded off inferiorly. Seven inches and a quarter in the curve, and marked: 5 with a lion. Thescabbardsandhiltsaremadeinthecountry. They areinmostrequestinDarfour. Thesaleisattendedwithcon siderable profit, but those marked with a death's-head from the workshops of Peter Knell, in Solingen, are preferred. “ (Note: The “5” in the text above in the cross & orb symbol in the original.) Below are great references I used, but forgot to include in the previous reply to you. They are key to the silver grips of both diamond and star & comet motifs. “Royal Regalia: a sword of the last Sultan of Darfur, Ali Dinar” J. Anderson, A. Ali Mohaned, et al, Sudan and Nubia, The Sudan Archaeological Research Society, Bulletin No. 20, 2016 Ancient Treasures exhibition from the Sudan National Museum, 2004, The British Museum. D. Welsby & J. Anderson. It shows the 1762 Nasir Mohamed Funj sword. I didn't use the image in the essay because a better one was available elsewhere. Regards, Ed Last edited by Edster; 21st July 2018 at 02:42 PM.

21st July 2018, 04:46 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Ian, Great example. Its a new one for me. High-end Beja, my guess. BTW how did you lift (cut & paste) the photos from the web site and to post on a thread? I couldn't make it happen. Ed

21st July 2018, 05:09 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Has this beautiful example already been sold, Ian ? .

21st July 2018, 05:52 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My German is absolute zero, but the page translates automatically into Portuguese as i open it. The way i see it, it has a (fixed) price still open for sale, reason why i asked, expecting to be wrong.

21st July 2018, 06:01 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Well done, Ed. Solid and well-written paper which establishes a viable typology. The Funj sword no longer appears in the British Museum database. Does anyone know the acquisition date?