Help requested on Islamic? inscriptions on a heavy axe

[Emanuel]

Hi Lee,

Here is what the curator of that gallery had provided:

...this gallery and the labels in it were the responsibility of a curator who has now retired, and I cannot really vouch for them. The objects acquired in 1906, 1913 and 1924 were acquired from a dealer, the same dealer, in fact, and he supplied no verifiable provenance information about the objects.

The shirt and leggings of mail are from a completely unrelated armour, some centuries later than the plates, while the back-plate is from a different armour from the other plates. The plates are certainly of a type well known from the Ottoman period of around the 16th century, and these pieces have the mark of the armoury in Istanbul, so they are quite secure.

I have never researched the axe, but I was under the impression that this type was from Mamluk Egypt, where a number of these two-handed battle-axes are known. It is not a normal weapon for the predominantly cavalry-based fighting of the Middle East. I have never seen anything really like this from India, even things vaguely like it are much lighter.

I can send you the curator's contact information if you'd like to pursue further discussion with him.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For interest ~ I was searching Jewish Sufi and wandering dervish of Iran details and came up with a peculiar fact...that this type of axe which I presume may also be of the Qajari style ...was present in Persia in /up to the 1920s. Please see http://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2013/0...ervishes-1922/ They can be seen in the back up documentation with several types of axe both single and double blades and saddle axes etc...I extracted a sketch from another source at www.mindelesjourney.com below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[DavidFriedman]

Amazing information put forward in this thread. Thank you for such interesting information and provenance.

Here is one of the same type of axes that I acquired from auction in Germany.

I originally considered it a Qajar axe of Sufi or processional use. Earlier today I saw a page of a book called Anatolia, Cradle of Casting (will attach pic after in next entry), and this book seemed to state this kind was Ottoman, and found in the Museum of Istanbul.

I would love to know if more information had been unearthed about your example, and the ROM’s example.

Thank you again.

[DavidFriedman]

Here is a page from a Turkish book, that illustrates these axes.

[DavidFriedman]

I’d be very curious if anyone would have any thoughts or information on who would have used these axes. Perhaps palace guards, perhaps Dervishes, parade pieces ?

[kronckew]

I just noticed the hammer polls show a lot of use, wear, deformation, tho the blade is unsharpened, like it was not intended to actually hurt someone. Possibly for religious reasons? Dervish?

Wear is consistent with hammering, like tent pegs, nails/spikes, etc.


p.s. - That Royal Ontario Museum really needs to do some maintenance & get rid of the active rust & use a bit of ren wax.

[DavidFriedman]

Yes, the hammer has a heavy dent in the corner. It must have hit something mighty solid at some point.

Originally Posted by kronckew

I just noticed the hammer polls show a lot of use, wear, deformation, tho the blade is unsharpened, like it was not intended to actually hurt someone. Possibly for religious reasons? Dervish?

Wear is consistent with hammering, like tent pegs, nails/spikes, etc.


p.s. - That Royal Ontario Museum really needs to do some maintenance & get rid of the active rust & use a bit of ren wax.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Here is a page from a Turkish book, that illustrates these axes.

Well, I have this Turkish book and many weapons are labelled as Ottomans and they are not.

It's a classic. Iranians and Indians are doing the same, everything in their country has to be from their country. I don't know if it is a mistake or just nationalism.

The axe posted is attributed to the Ottomans based on the Royal Ontario mistake.

This axe is Persian, probably for religious or theatrical representations.

IMO

[DavidFriedman]

Persian, possibly presented to, or kept in the Ottoman collection?

I see lots of light dervish and Shiite type (I’m assuming) axes. This one is like a sledgehammer, between 4-5 lbs. Seems heavy for a wandering dervish or theater.

I wonder if it could have been used like a mace to crush armor.

If it was used in a religious event, what would it have been used for I wonder.

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I have this Turkish book and many weapons are labelled as Ottomans and they are not.

It's a classic. Iranians and Indians are doing the same, everything in their country has to be from their country. I don't know if it is a mistake or just nationalism.

The axe posted is attributed to the Ottomans based on the Royal Ontario mistake.

This axe is Persian, probably for religious or theatrical representations.

IMO

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Persian, possibly presented to, or kept in the Ottoman collection?

Sorry David I missed your post.

You are correct, many Persian and Caucasian weapons are in Turkish collections.
See post 22
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=22

Post 18 shows real Turkish axes
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=18

Post 17 close ups show decorations, calligraphy and the bird of prey are designs from Indo Persian repertoire, nothing Ottoman there.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=17

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

If it was used in a religious event, what would it have been used for I wonder.

Just for processions and parades I guess...

[Lee]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

I would love to know if more information had been unearthed about your example, and the ROM’s example.

Not that I am aware of, though as we see with this thread, more examples continue to be found. The second I saw was headed to auction in Scotland.

I still hypothesize that the very plain wooden handles, in contrast to the decoration on the blade, on a few of the examples were replacements made for display high up on a wall in St. Irene in Istanbul. I found the wood grossly similar to some of the reconstructed grips on swords. Even if this 'romantic' notion is correct, St. Irene was the trophy hall of the Ottoman military and contained captured and presented pieces from around their region of influence as well as many old local pieces so that does not really help me towards the original origin. (The Askeri (Military) Museum now houses that collection and St. Irene has been repurposed as an events venue.)

The two that I have handled are both really heavy and I'd be surprised if that much mass would have been put into a wall hanger at the time. Could these have been a 'terror display' weapon for the front line, like the big Renaissance European two-handed swords? Or more darkly, was all that mass to insure an executioner would not botch the job. I just do not know.

[DavidFriedman]

Interesting about the sword handles. I see lots of handles on axes that just don’t seem to be as old as the axes, frequently with the lathed ribbed grip along the pole.

Yes mine is about 4-5 lbs, pretty heavy for a money making wallhangers, where a thin blade would suffice.

If sharp they would make perfect execution axes, but they are far from sharp, as if their taper was designed to be blunt.

I wonder if they could have been used as palace guard axes, part display, part mace-like bashers.

A mystery.

Originally Posted by Lee

Not that I am aware of, though as we see with this thread, more examples continue to be found. The second I saw was headed to auction in Scotland.

I still hypothesize that the very plain wooden handles, in contrast to the decoration on the blade, on a few of the examples were replacements made for display high up on a wall in St. Irene in Istanbul. I found the wood grossly similar to some of the reconstructed grips on swords. Even if this 'romantic' notion is correct, St. Irene was the trophy hall of the Ottoman military and contained captured and presented pieces from around their region of influence as well as many old local pieces so that does not really help me towards the original origin. (The Askeri (Military) Museum now houses that collection and St. Irene has been repurposed as an events venue.)

The two that I have handled are both really heavy and I'd be surprised if that much mass would have been put into a wall hanger at the time. Could these have been a 'terror display' weapon for the front line, like the big Renaissance European two-handed swords? Or more darkly, was all that mass to insure an executioner would not botch the job. I just do not know.