Help requested on Islamic? inscriptions on a heavy axe

[DavidFriedman]

Amazing information put forward in this thread. Thank you for such interesting information and provenance.

Here is one of the same type of axes that I acquired from auction in Germany.

I originally considered it a Qajar axe of Sufi or processional use. Earlier today I saw a page of a book called Anatolia, Cradle of Casting (will attach pic after in next entry), and this book seemed to state this kind was Ottoman, and found in the Museum of Istanbul.

I would love to know if more information had been unearthed about your example, and the ROM’s example.

Thank you again.

[DavidFriedman]

Here is a page from a Turkish book, that illustrates these axes.

[DavidFriedman]

I’d be very curious if anyone would have any thoughts or information on who would have used these axes. Perhaps palace guards, perhaps Dervishes, parade pieces ?

[kronckew]

I just noticed the hammer polls show a lot of use, wear, deformation, tho the blade is unsharpened, like it was not intended to actually hurt someone. Possibly for religious reasons? Dervish?

Wear is consistent with hammering, like tent pegs, nails/spikes, etc.


p.s. - That Royal Ontario Museum really needs to do some maintenance & get rid of the active rust & use a bit of ren wax.

[DavidFriedman]

Yes, the hammer has a heavy dent in the corner. It must have hit something mighty solid at some point.

Originally Posted by kronckew

I just noticed the hammer polls show a lot of use, wear, deformation, tho the blade is unsharpened, like it was not intended to actually hurt someone. Possibly for religious reasons? Dervish?

Wear is consistent with hammering, like tent pegs, nails/spikes, etc.


p.s. - That Royal Ontario Museum really needs to do some maintenance & get rid of the active rust & use a bit of ren wax.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Here is a page from a Turkish book, that illustrates these axes.

Well, I have this Turkish book and many weapons are labelled as Ottomans and they are not.

It's a classic. Iranians and Indians are doing the same, everything in their country has to be from their country. I don't know if it is a mistake or just nationalism.

The axe posted is attributed to the Ottomans based on the Royal Ontario mistake.

This axe is Persian, probably for religious or theatrical representations.

IMO

[DavidFriedman]

Persian, possibly presented to, or kept in the Ottoman collection?

I see lots of light dervish and Shiite type (I’m assuming) axes. This one is like a sledgehammer, between 4-5 lbs. Seems heavy for a wandering dervish or theater.

I wonder if it could have been used like a mace to crush armor.

If it was used in a religious event, what would it have been used for I wonder.

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I have this Turkish book and many weapons are labelled as Ottomans and they are not.

It's a classic. Iranians and Indians are doing the same, everything in their country has to be from their country. I don't know if it is a mistake or just nationalism.

The axe posted is attributed to the Ottomans based on the Royal Ontario mistake.

This axe is Persian, probably for religious or theatrical representations.

IMO

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Persian, possibly presented to, or kept in the Ottoman collection?

Sorry David I missed your post.

You are correct, many Persian and Caucasian weapons are in Turkish collections.
See post 22
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=22

Post 18 shows real Turkish axes
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=18

Post 17 close ups show decorations, calligraphy and the bird of prey are designs from Indo Persian repertoire, nothing Ottoman there.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=17

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

If it was used in a religious event, what would it have been used for I wonder.

Just for processions and parades I guess...

[DavidFriedman]

Thanks. So the bird of prey motif shown on these axes, is distinct to just Persia?

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sorry David I missed your post.

You are correct, many Persian and Caucasian weapons are in Turkish collections.
See post 22
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=22

Post 18 shows real Turkish axes
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=18

Post 17 close ups show decorations, calligraphy and the bird of prey are designs from Indo Persian repertoire, nothing Ottoman there.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=17



Just for processions and parades I guess...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Thanks. So the bird of prey motif shown on these axes, is distinct to just Persia?

Correct the bird with a prey or the leopard with a prey /gazelle are common on axes and Iranian daggers, or indo persian arms. Look at mine here.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

I would love to know if more information had been unearthed about your example, and the ROM’s example.

Not that I am aware of, though as we see with this thread, more examples continue to be found. The second I saw was headed to auction in Scotland.

I still hypothesize that the very plain wooden handles, in contrast to the decoration on the blade, on a few of the examples were replacements made for display high up on a wall in St. Irene in Istanbul. I found the wood grossly similar to some of the reconstructed grips on swords. Even if this 'romantic' notion is correct, St. Irene was the trophy hall of the Ottoman military and contained captured and presented pieces from around their region of influence as well as many old local pieces so that does not really help me towards the original origin. (The Askeri (Military) Museum now houses that collection and St. Irene has been repurposed as an events venue.)

The two that I have handled are both really heavy and I'd be surprised if that much mass would have been put into a wall hanger at the time. Could these have been a 'terror display' weapon for the front line, like the big Renaissance European two-handed swords? Or more darkly, was all that mass to insure an executioner would not botch the job. I just do not know.

[DavidFriedman]

Interesting about the sword handles. I see lots of handles on axes that just don’t seem to be as old as the axes, frequently with the lathed ribbed grip along the pole.

Yes mine is about 4-5 lbs, pretty heavy for a money making wallhangers, where a thin blade would suffice.

If sharp they would make perfect execution axes, but they are far from sharp, as if their taper was designed to be blunt.

I wonder if they could have been used as palace guard axes, part display, part mace-like bashers.

A mystery.

Originally Posted by Lee

Not that I am aware of, though as we see with this thread, more examples continue to be found. The second I saw was headed to auction in Scotland.

I still hypothesize that the very plain wooden handles, in contrast to the decoration on the blade, on a few of the examples were replacements made for display high up on a wall in St. Irene in Istanbul. I found the wood grossly similar to some of the reconstructed grips on swords. Even if this 'romantic' notion is correct, St. Irene was the trophy hall of the Ottoman military and contained captured and presented pieces from around their region of influence as well as many old local pieces so that does not really help me towards the original origin. (The Askeri (Military) Museum now houses that collection and St. Irene has been repurposed as an events venue.)

The two that I have handled are both really heavy and I'd be surprised if that much mass would have been put into a wall hanger at the time. Could these have been a 'terror display' weapon for the front line, like the big Renaissance European two-handed swords? Or more darkly, was all that mass to insure an executioner would not botch the job. I just do not know.