Kaskara for Comment.

Iain · 3rd November 2010, 05:00 PM

Hi Edster,

Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan?

Very interesting subject for sure!

Best,

Iain

Rumpel · 3rd November 2010, 10:47 PM

Hi David,

Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing...

I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery

), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

katana · 4th November 2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Hi David,

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

Hi Rumpel,
thanks for the reply and further info.

I suspect 'Jealousy' is something we all feel from time to time.....I certainly do....many formites have swords and weapons that should be home with me

...not them

I e-mailed Durham twice, but received no reply. There is a good chance that the correct department didn't recieve them...or perhaps IT security protocols sent my e-mails to a 'spam' folder.
I would love to follow this up....if you have a contact name or e-mail address at Durham that would help the 'cause'....could you PM them to me. Failing that perhaps 'snail' mail may work.

Kind Regards David

katana · 4th November 2010, 10:47 PM

Hi Edster,
hello and welcome to the forum

. I have read your posts with interest .....and would love to hear more.

Regards David

Edster · 5th November 2010, 02:18 AM

Thanks, David. I really glad I lucked on to the EAA forum. Great informative posts and a great bunch of folks interested in sharing knowledge.

A couple of stylistic areas I like to see explored:

1.) Most of the kaskaras I saw in Kassala and in the Mahdi Museum in Omdurman had intergral "tassles" on the handles. Some of the photos shared on the forum have them while others do not. I wonder if tassles are time and or place of origin related. I have a silver mounted kaskara from Eastern Sudan supposedly circa 1915, plus two others with just leather from there as well. All three have tassles. I wonder if examples from Chad and Western Sudan are without.

2.) Some blades have talismic stamps like the Fly referenced in a post above. It would be neat to catalogue as many stamps as possible to assist in identification in time and place of origin is possible. It was told to me that the "Suliman" has five groves that extend down a third of the blade followed by a multi-rayed sun is the "Suliman Abu Shammish" (Father of the Sun). Also, the +O symbol is a Drum to build up courage while the Rampant Lion is a "Dukare Affringe" for brave men. Another one is a circle, sometimes two with a couple of small circles inside and a wiggly line inside. I don't recall what this one means, but it fairly common. I'm not aware of any special time or place criteria for these except I learned about them and saw samples in Kassala, Eastern Sudan in 1984. My inspection sample is rather limited. There must be several other examples in the Forum's collections or in reference books.

The beating of big tribal brass or copper?? drums was a big deal during the Mahdiya and any time tribal unity was needed. (Sort of like "calling out the clan" in Scottish history, I imagine. Many were buried after the British reconquest and their locations have been lost to the tribal groups and to history.

Take care,
Edster

Iain · 5th November 2010, 10:15 AM

Hi Ed,

Very interesting notes. In particular your comments about the +O markings. As these undoubtedly are derived from the common Solingen cross and orb markings. I find it fascinating the mark was not only applied by local smiths, but also co-opted for a specific talismanic intention. While it has been long assumed that European marks where applied locally as a sign of quality, I at least had been unaware that such specific meanings had been assigned to them.

I wonder if the same meanings cross apply to takouba blades... I have an old takouba blade with the cross and orb, however the application of the marks makes it somewhat suspect to me that they are European in origin. It would be interesting if similar talismanic meanings crossed over into Tuareg culture.

Where you aware of any locally applied running wolf markings and specific meanings attached to them in the kaskaras you saw?

Best,

Iain

Edster · 5th November 2010, 03:06 PM

Hi Iain,

I'm not familiar with the Soligen marks or takoubas except those posted on EAA. But in my opinion they are stylistically superior to the kaskara.

No doubt trans-saharra (sic) trade between Algeria and Chad and then to Western Sudan. Trans-Sahalian movement to the east as pilgrims travelled from west Africa across Sudan to Mecca for the haj. A lot of Hausa Hajjis settled in Sudan rather than go all the way back home. Also, the 40 Day Road from Kordofan to Eqypt was another trade link. Blades and design ideas no doubt flowed in all directions and were translated into the local "cultural currency". Don't forget the trade and warfare between Sudanic kingdoms and Abasinnia (sic, again). The Ethiopians had a higher culture and presumably better technology than the Sudanese.

Many of these travellers were of the same Sufi orders and the common membership was a strong basis of social relationships. Blacksmiths also were Sufis, even though they were marginalized by local leaderships. Travel and common social linkages would have been a major way for stylistic, talismic and technological transmission to take place. Testing of these notions on the ground is the really cool part of anthropology.

I wonder if there is a simple non-distructive test for blade carbon and other alloy content. Since most contemporary Kassala made kaskara blades are forged from Land-Rover and lorry leaf springs, it would be a good way of dating blades before and after the 1899 reconquest. I lot of "Mahdiya" swords were wrought iron and any locally carbonized blades would likely be highly variable in carbon content.

Wouldn't be neat to identify someone in Kassala blacksmith market with an email address or cell phone so we could just call them up and get a consultation directly from the local experts.

Best,
Edster

3rd November 2010, 05:00 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,718	Hi Edster, Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan? Very interesting subject for sure! Best, Iain

3rd November 2010, 10:47 PM	#2
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Hi David, Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing... I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery ), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

4th November 2010, 10:47 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Edster, hello and welcome to the forum . I have read your posts with interest .....and would love to hear more. Regards David

5th November 2010, 02:18 AM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 417	Thanks, David. I really glad I lucked on to the EAA forum. Great informative posts and a great bunch of folks interested in sharing knowledge. A couple of stylistic areas I like to see explored: 1.) Most of the kaskaras I saw in Kassala and in the Mahdi Museum in Omdurman had intergral "tassles" on the handles. Some of the photos shared on the forum have them while others do not. I wonder if tassles are time and or place of origin related. I have a silver mounted kaskara from Eastern Sudan supposedly circa 1915, plus two others with just leather from there as well. All three have tassles. I wonder if examples from Chad and Western Sudan are without. 2.) Some blades have talismic stamps like the Fly referenced in a post above. It would be neat to catalogue as many stamps as possible to assist in identification in time and place of origin is possible. It was told to me that the "Suliman" has five groves that extend down a third of the blade followed by a multi-rayed sun is the "Suliman Abu Shammish" (Father of the Sun). Also, the +O symbol is a Drum to build up courage while the Rampant Lion is a "Dukare Affringe" for brave men. Another one is a circle, sometimes two with a couple of small circles inside and a wiggly line inside. I don't recall what this one means, but it fairly common. I'm not aware of any special time or place criteria for these except I learned about them and saw samples in Kassala, Eastern Sudan in 1984. My inspection sample is rather limited. There must be several other examples in the Forum's collections or in reference books. The beating of big tribal brass or copper?? drums was a big deal during the Mahdiya and any time tribal unity was needed. (Sort of like "calling out the clan" in Scottish history, I imagine. Many were buried after the British reconquest and their locations have been lost to the tribal groups and to history. Take care, Edster

5th November 2010, 10:15 AM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,718	Hi Ed, Very interesting notes. In particular your comments about the +O markings. As these undoubtedly are derived from the common Solingen cross and orb markings. I find it fascinating the mark was not only applied by local smiths, but also co-opted for a specific talismanic intention. While it has been long assumed that European marks where applied locally as a sign of quality, I at least had been unaware that such specific meanings had been assigned to them. I wonder if the same meanings cross apply to takouba blades... I have an old takouba blade with the cross and orb, however the application of the marks makes it somewhat suspect to me that they are European in origin. It would be interesting if similar talismanic meanings crossed over into Tuareg culture. Where you aware of any locally applied running wolf markings and specific meanings attached to them in the kaskaras you saw? Best, Iain

5th November 2010, 03:06 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 417	Hi Iain, I'm not familiar with the Soligen marks or takoubas except those posted on EAA. But in my opinion they are stylistically superior to the kaskara. No doubt trans-saharra (sic) trade between Algeria and Chad and then to Western Sudan. Trans-Sahalian movement to the east as pilgrims travelled from west Africa across Sudan to Mecca for the haj. A lot of Hausa Hajjis settled in Sudan rather than go all the way back home. Also, the 40 Day Road from Kordofan to Eqypt was another trade link. Blades and design ideas no doubt flowed in all directions and were translated into the local "cultural currency". Don't forget the trade and warfare between Sudanic kingdoms and Abasinnia (sic, again). The Ethiopians had a higher culture and presumably better technology than the Sudanese. Many of these travellers were of the same Sufi orders and the common membership was a strong basis of social relationships. Blacksmiths also were Sufis, even though they were marginalized by local leaderships. Travel and common social linkages would have been a major way for stylistic, talismic and technological transmission to take place. Testing of these notions on the ground is the really cool part of anthropology. I wonder if there is a simple non-distructive test for blade carbon and other alloy content. Since most contemporary Kassala made kaskara blades are forged from Land-Rover and lorry leaf springs, it would be a good way of dating blades before and after the 1899 reconquest. I lot of "Mahdiya" swords were wrought iron and any locally carbonized blades would likely be highly variable in carbon content. Wouldn't be neat to identify someone in Kassala blacksmith market with an email address or cell phone so we could just call them up and get a consultation directly from the local experts. Best, Edster