Kaskara for Comment.

Wodimi · 9th August 2009, 09:52 PM

ahhhh....I forgot to show another Kaskara with an unusual Pommel. You can find it in AMNH and I think collected in 1914/15 in Egypt.
So maybe a Sudanese Kaskara was taken by Mamluk warriors of Ottoman Egypt and convert with such a handle in a Mameluke weapon. Only a thought.
There you also find this special headdress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt

Wolf

Rick · 9th August 2009, 10:49 PM

Jim and I both thank you Wolf .

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Jim and I both thank you Wolf .

Absolutely, thank you so much Wolf, fantastic insight!!! Very good thoughts on the Ottoman and Mamluk application, worthy of further research.
Both Rick and I have been on the trail of this mystery mark for a while now, and I'll try to find a photo of mine which is virtually identical, and claimed to be of the Ali Dinar armoury.

Stephen, excellently observed, and I believe the illustration is from "Nigerian Panoply" (I cannot recall the author at the moment). The thuluth etching was indeed used on the regalia swords of this monarchy, and the presence of such a decorated blade on a takouba is of course not surprising. There are a number of interesting anomalies which demonstrate the significant contact between the Sudan, the Sahara and Tuaregs, and Nigeria.

Still looking for the photo, fantastic input on this topic, thank you so much guys!

All the best,
Jim

stephen wood · 10th August 2009, 01:03 PM

...I think that the book was a copy of ARMOURERS MARKS Being a Compilation of Known Marks of Armourers Swordsmiths and Gunsmiths by Dudley Gyngell. I saw it in a bookshop.

The picture is indeed from Nigerian Panoply but it was posted in this forum before. The book is from the mid 1960's. I think that most of the takoubas which turn up in the UK are from Nigeria.

stephen wood · 9th August 2009, 10:56 PM

...I saw a similar mark in a book of armourers' marks on Friday - it did not give a name only a place - Saxony. Also, regarding etched takoubas this image takes us back into legend - to the foundation of the worlds second-oldest monarchy....

Wodimi · 10th August 2009, 01:16 AM

Fantastic Stephen, North Nigeria, that makes sense. Where can I find the picture and did you know when the picture was made? Would be also great if you have the title of your armourers' marks book, or/and a scan from the mark.

Thanks
Wolf

Rick · 10th August 2009, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodimi

Fantastic Stephen, North Nigeria, that makes sense. Where can I find the picture and did you know when the picture was made? Would be also great if you have the title of your armourers' marks book, or/and a scan from the mark.

Thanks
Wolf

Please, let me add my request also .

This blade of mine seems quite finely made .
When I gently rest it against the side of a chair, point down, it quivers for 20 seconds or so.
The fuller is forged in .

It seems almost alive .

Rick

katana · 30th August 2009, 02:21 AM

Michael (Blalock) has just started a thread regarding Arabic swords....below is a picture he posted on that thread...it is taken in the Military Museum of Yemen..thank you Michael

...one of the pommels seems very familiar..

Regards David

Rick · 30th August 2009, 04:02 AM

The Piso Podang's pommel ??

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The Piso Podang's pommel ??

Good call Rick! Thats what I'm looking at dead center, a piso podang with that distinct turbanesque pommel. Interestingly, like the tulwar, whose pommels are believed to represent variations of stupa in degree, perhaps these type pommels are also architectural in origin.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 30th August 2009, 12:54 PM

Hi Rick and Jim

,
I am probably 'grasping at straws' but I cannot find another Kaskara with a 'remotely' similar pommel. The piso podang is generally considered to be 'Indian' influenced. A number of Sudanese weapons IMHO are also 'Indian' influenced (the haldie and the 'horned mace' spring to mind).
With the constant trade between India, the Arabs and North Eastern Africa ...'styles' would 'migrate'.

Afterall, why would a piso podang be displayed in a Yemen Millitary Museum

The pommel on my Kaskara seems quite rare and possibly influenced from, perhaps India. The question is, if this is correct, why would the owner/creator of this sword choose this design ? Why is it so different from the standardised pommel.
I have posted this on SFI asking if anyone had any ideas as to the origins of the pommel design .....I have received no replies

Regards David

Rumpel · 30th October 2010, 02:08 AM

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but I spent my lunch break salivating over the BM's Sackler Gallery today.

They have a beautiful silver-hilted kaskara on temporary display this week (they're rejigging the African weapons cases at the moment) with a gorgeous European-foliate design hammered-sliver hilt but similar pommel. The tag just said Sudan, 20th c, but I think that's a failure of description on their part. The (huge) throwing knives case had a tag saying, essentially, 'we have no idea what any of these are or mean...'

katana · 1st November 2010, 07:38 PM

Hi Rumpel,
thank you for for remembering this thread

, I have tried to find an image on the web (of the sword you mentioned), but have been unsucessful. Do you have a picture or a link ? Thank you
Kind Regards David

9th August 2009, 09:52 PM	#1
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	ahhhh....I forgot to show another Kaskara with an unusual Pommel. You can find it in AMNH and I think collected in 1914/15 in Egypt. So maybe a Sudanese Kaskara was taken by Mamluk warriors of Ottoman Egypt and convert with such a handle in a Mameluke weapon. Only a thought. There you also find this special headdress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt Wolf Attached Images

10th August 2009, 01:03 PM	#4
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...I think that the book was a copy of ARMOURERS MARKS Being a Compilation of Known Marks of Armourers Swordsmiths and Gunsmiths by Dudley Gyngell. I saw it in a bookshop. The picture is indeed from Nigerian Panoply but it was posted in this forum before. The book is from the mid 1960's. I think that most of the takoubas which turn up in the UK are from Nigeria. Last edited by stephen wood; 10th August 2009 at 02:54 PM.

9th August 2009, 10:56 PM	#5
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...I saw a similar mark in a book of armourers' marks on Friday - it did not give a name only a place - Saxony. Also, regarding etched takoubas this image takes us back into legend - to the foundation of the worlds second-oldest monarchy.... Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 10th August 2009 at 12:33 AM.

30th August 2009, 02:21 AM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Michael (Blalock) has just started a thread regarding Arabic swords....below is a picture he posted on that thread...it is taken in the Military Museum of Yemen..thank you Michael ...one of the pommels seems very familiar.. Regards David Attached Images

9th August 2009, 10:49 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Jim and I both thank you Wolf .

10th August 2009, 01:16 AM	#6
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Fantastic Stephen, North Nigeria, that makes sense. Where can I find the picture and did you know when the picture was made? Would be also great if you have the title of your armourers' marks book, or/and a scan from the mark. Thanks Wolf

30th August 2009, 04:02 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	The Piso Podang's pommel ??

30th August 2009, 12:54 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rick and Jim , I am probably 'grasping at straws' but I cannot find another Kaskara with a 'remotely' similar pommel. The piso podang is generally considered to be 'Indian' influenced. A number of Sudanese weapons IMHO are also 'Indian' influenced (the haldie and the 'horned mace' spring to mind). With the constant trade between India, the Arabs and North Eastern Africa ...'styles' would 'migrate'. Afterall, why would a piso podang be displayed in a Yemen Millitary Museum The pommel on my Kaskara seems quite rare and possibly influenced from, perhaps India. The question is, if this is correct, why would the owner/creator of this sword choose this design ? Why is it so different from the standardised pommel. I have posted this on SFI asking if anyone had any ideas as to the origins of the pommel design .....I have received no replies Regards David

30th October 2010, 02:08 AM	#12
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Sorry to revive a dead thread, but I spent my lunch break salivating over the BM's Sackler Gallery today. They have a beautiful silver-hilted kaskara on temporary display this week (they're rejigging the African weapons cases at the moment) with a gorgeous European-foliate design hammered-sliver hilt but similar pommel. The tag just said Sudan, 20th c, but I think that's a failure of description on their part. The (huge) throwing knives case had a tag saying, essentially, 'we have no idea what any of these are or mean...'

1st November 2010, 07:38 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rumpel, thank you for for remembering this thread , I have tried to find an image on the web (of the sword you mentioned), but have been unsucessful. Do you have a picture or a link ? Thank you Kind Regards David