Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 02:31 PM

A bit of a pain for you, perhaps, but IMHO it should be a two-forum thread, and the keris forum would hook you up major detailed info, explanatory pictures, etc. It's not just for keris, but other tosan aji, et.

Rick · 25th June 2010, 03:51 PM

Hi Bill,

I'd suggest that what we are talking about here is a diaspora of the keris from its place of origin (Java) through travel and trade to the Philippines .

(see the Thai Kreis thread in the Warung)

It seems pretty likely the keris came to the Philippines with the Malays .

I'd suggest that questions about the keris be asked in the Warung and queries about the Moro kris be posted here (ethno) along with any conclusions drawn from the results of the information from both forums .

Some questions to explore might be the importance of pamor patterns in Moro krisses, and an exploration of the esoteric importance of the Moro version vs the Javanese or Malay .

Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side .
The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender .

Sadly much of this knowledge may have died with the men who were defending their faith and their lands in the 19th and early 20th centuries .

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:18 AM

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:20 AM

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

Rick · 26th June 2010, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

We use this different spelling to make it clear which species of weapon form we are discussing, Tom .

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

We use this different spelling to make it clear which species of weapon form we are discussing, Tom .

And instead you thus make it obscure and confusing, creating a division that is largely invalid and that the natives of the region do not recognize. Indnesian and Malay books on kris tend to give kris sundang as a variant form like any other, for instance.

David · 27th June 2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

Actually Tom, i am not convinced that this pronounciation is exactly correct.

kahnjar1 · 26th June 2010, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

My two cents worth regarding origins.....Malaysia may not be the origin but the Kris figures prominantly on their National Coat of Arms, and also is used as a prominent part of the logo of Tourism Melaka, so one could assume that the Malays have some claim??

Rick · 26th June 2010, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

Please .
Prove otherwise .

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Please .
Prove otherwise .

I don't have any need to prove otherwise; I merely point out it is a far from settled matter. A simple search of these forums will show that to anyone. So you please; don't present your favored position as a settled matter.

David · 27th June 2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I don't have any need to prove otherwise; I merely point out it is a far from settled matter. A simple search of these forums will show that to anyone. So you please; don't present your favored position as a settled matter.

I believe tha this matter is sort of like the global warming issue Tom. 98% of all scientists will tell you it's true and there are 2% trying their damnest to persuade everyone it is all nonsense.
Until you can prove to me otherwise, the keris orginated in Jawa.

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side .
The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender . .

What do you mean "were"?

Rick · 26th June 2010, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

What do you mean "were"?

Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc. .
Numerous other Cottas that were wiped out to the man woman and child ?
Warrior class Men, their Wives and Children ?
The people who carried these traditions ?

Mostly gone .

We digress ...

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc. .
Numerous other Cottas that were wiped out to the man woman and child ?
Warrior class Men, their Wives and Children ?
The people who carried these traditions ?

Mostly gone .

We digress ...

You digress; I merely reply. Their descendants ain't started laying down yet, is my point.

Bill M · 26th June 2010, 12:32 PM

In this exhibition we are looking for links from Javanese (and Balinese) keris to PI kris.

I began studying the Javanese / Balinese keris a few years ago. I found an object of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship. I was (and still am) attracted to the spiritual nature. The blade and particularly the tang are relatively weak as a fighting piece.

It seemed much more a talisman and spiritual weapon than a battle piece.

I found it difficult to study the spiritual/religious nature of the keris. I learned, from a great teacher, about the construction, the metallurgy even the numerology, but an in depth understanding of the religious nature continues to elude me.

The Javanese keris continues to be the core of my Indonesian collection, followed by Balinese and then other areas.

A good friend Great grandfather was an American General in the PI in the late 1800s/early 190ss. In going though his effects they found three "blades" that turned out to be the genesis of my PI collection. A dagger, a kampilan and a kris (dual fuller twist core).

Here I found a massive spiritual blade that was also a combat weapon.

So we are thinking about showing the keris as having originally coming from India. There seems to be evidence to support this. Developing in Java and expanding to the other Indonesian islands -- as a talisman more than a fighting weapon. And being the genesis of the south Philippines kris and a principle weapon of these freedom fighters.

I am trying to make this as authentic as possible, but realize there is a lot of conflicting information and ideas with cadres firmly entrenched in their positions/opinions.

This exhibition is in a small museum in south Georgia. We are following an exhibit of cotton growing in the early 1900s. Boll weevils and the beginnings of mechanization. These patrons are our local audience.

The men will probably come to see the swords. The women to see the exhibits and jewel-like Javanese/Balinese keris.

This will not be an in-depth study with pages of information. Some text panels that first show world geography, then the regional geography, then pictures (like Magellan fighting for his life in the surf) and a kampilan in a case nearby.

We are not here to debate if the greneng has dha shaped carving, nor the position of the blumbangan.. Discussions like this are much more appropriate to this erudite forum, and I mean that last remark with great respect.

To me and Anne, this is a chance to refocus and reconnect with our collection of marvelous pieces. Hopefully to jump start our interest back into Indonesia and the Philippines. Our best pieces will not leave our home and vault, but maybe a few museum visitors will get a glimmer of places, people and things they have never seen before.

So from India to Indonesia to the battles of the south Philippines culminating with interviews with two PI Princesses I personally know - one from the lineage of Sultan Kuderat and the other from the lineage of Datu Utto.

I do have much larger museums asking for exhibits and this can also be a springboard for them.

So thank you all again for your help in this great project and lets keep it fun! And isn't it a major reason for being a collector to share your fun with others?

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:41 PM

Kris tang is not weak. It is very sufficient to its purpose as a serious and deadly weapon, as in fact, and possibly at an earlier date than in Europe, an expression of what Burton called the Modern Sword; the sword for thrusting, cutting, and parrying. When you use a kris properly to fight no stress accrues across the tang, only along it. All cuts all thrusts all parries distribute the force along the tang when properly done. This is true in proper design and use of most swords worldwide, but kris is reall an epitome.
Not a weapon? What a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

25th June 2010, 03:51 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,346	Hi Bill, I'd suggest that what we are talking about here is a diaspora of the keris from its place of origin (Java) through travel and trade to the Philippines . (see the Thai Kreis thread in the Warung) It seems pretty likely the keris came to the Philippines with the Malays . I'd suggest that questions about the keris be asked in the Warung and queries about the Moro kris be posted here (ethno) along with any conclusions drawn from the results of the information from both forums . Some questions to explore might be the importance of pamor patterns in Moro krisses, and an exploration of the esoteric importance of the Moro version vs the Javanese or Malay . Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side . The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender . Sadly much of this knowledge may have died with the men who were defending their faith and their lands in the 19th and early 20th centuries . Last edited by Rick; 26th June 2010 at 04:02 AM.

25th June 2010, 02:31 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	A bit of a pain for you, perhaps, but IMHO it should be a two-forum thread, and the keris forum would hook you up major detailed info, explanatory pictures, etc. It's not just for keris, but other tosan aji, et.

26th June 2010, 12:18 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

26th June 2010, 12:20 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

26th June 2010, 12:32 PM	#15
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	In this exhibition we are looking for links from Javanese (and Balinese) keris to PI kris. I began studying the Javanese / Balinese keris a few years ago. I found an object of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship. I was (and still am) attracted to the spiritual nature. The blade and particularly the tang are relatively weak as a fighting piece. It seemed much more a talisman and spiritual weapon than a battle piece. I found it difficult to study the spiritual/religious nature of the keris. I learned, from a great teacher, about the construction, the metallurgy even the numerology, but an in depth understanding of the religious nature continues to elude me. The Javanese keris continues to be the core of my Indonesian collection, followed by Balinese and then other areas. A good friend Great grandfather was an American General in the PI in the late 1800s/early 190ss. In going though his effects they found three "blades" that turned out to be the genesis of my PI collection. A dagger, a kampilan and a kris (dual fuller twist core). Here I found a massive spiritual blade that was also a combat weapon. So we are thinking about showing the keris as having originally coming from India. There seems to be evidence to support this. Developing in Java and expanding to the other Indonesian islands -- as a talisman more than a fighting weapon. And being the genesis of the south Philippines kris and a principle weapon of these freedom fighters. I am trying to make this as authentic as possible, but realize there is a lot of conflicting information and ideas with cadres firmly entrenched in their positions/opinions. This exhibition is in a small museum in south Georgia. We are following an exhibit of cotton growing in the early 1900s. Boll weevils and the beginnings of mechanization. These patrons are our local audience. The men will probably come to see the swords. The women to see the exhibits and jewel-like Javanese/Balinese keris. This will not be an in-depth study with pages of information. Some text panels that first show world geography, then the regional geography, then pictures (like Magellan fighting for his life in the surf) and a kampilan in a case nearby. We are not here to debate if the greneng has dha shaped carving, nor the position of the blumbangan.. Discussions like this are much more appropriate to this erudite forum, and I mean that last remark with great respect. To me and Anne, this is a chance to refocus and reconnect with our collection of marvelous pieces. Hopefully to jump start our interest back into Indonesia and the Philippines. Our best pieces will not leave our home and vault, but maybe a few museum visitors will get a glimmer of places, people and things they have never seen before. So from India to Indonesia to the battles of the south Philippines culminating with interviews with two PI Princesses I personally know - one from the lineage of Sultan Kuderat and the other from the lineage of Datu Utto. I do have much larger museums asking for exhibits and this can also be a springboard for them. So thank you all again for your help in this great project and lets keep it fun! And isn't it a major reason for being a collector to share your fun with others?

26th June 2010, 12:41 PM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Kris tang is not weak. It is very sufficient to its purpose as a serious and deadly weapon, as in fact, and possibly at an earlier date than in Europe, an expression of what Burton called the Modern Sword; the sword for thrusting, cutting, and parrying. When you use a kris properly to fight no stress accrues across the tang, only along it. All cuts all thrusts all parries distribute the force along the tang when properly done. This is true in proper design and use of most swords worldwide, but kris is reall an epitome. Not a weapon? What a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!