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Old 6th June 2012, 02:01 PM   #1
Jean-Marc S.
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Hello,

What about this other powder flask (origin, date) ?

Its length is 26 cm.

Thanks,

jm
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Old 6th June 2012, 04:54 PM   #2
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Hello, Jean-Marc,

I noticed this flask about two years ago at Armes d'Antan, a French dealer's site, and date it 'ca. 1580-1600', possibly of German (Nuremberg) make.

Well done though it was not exactly cheap!

This is a specimen of a commonly known type of triangular flasks that are traditionally associated with musketeers' armament of the 1560's to the late 16th century. In contradiction to other experts' opinions, I am convinced that the production of triangular flasks largely stopped at the beginning of the 17th c. when only the bandolier continued to be in use. The largest deliveries are recorded to have taken place in 1577-8, from Nuremberg to the Graz armory. The only two known instances of period artwork depicting triangular flasks are by Stradanus, from the 1560's, top attachments, and from 1585-87, by Hendrik Goltzius (following); both artisans showed the flasks attached with the belt hook to the back of the belt of a 1570's musketeer still equipped with an early petronel type of musket (see attachments).

The body is composed of thin pinewood or beechwood boards glued together with bone glue and covered with corduan leather. Other Nuremberg flasks were covered with wool velvet. The egeds are reinforced with pieces of tinned iron put in losely and easy to detach once the top mount has been taken off. The latter, if preserved completely original, must retain its long copper-soldered nozzle with either a small detachable lid fixed to a delicate chain, or, as is the case with your flask, with a spring-loaded lid with long handle, plus a spring-loaded horziontal cut-off for portioning the amount of powder to fill to nozzle.

This is a finely preserved exmaple fitted on the reverse with an unusually long belt hook.

Originally, a cord with tassels of wood and solk were attached to the rings which are in most cases missing today. When they are retained in their full pristine colored glory, as is the case with some of my pieces, the price amounts to three or four time that of a 'plain' flask.

I attach photos of similar flasks in my collection; the first an unusually fine and large specimen, Nuremberg, ca. 1580, the body covered with blue velvet, and retaining its original colored wool and silk tassels.


For more information, please see




Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 6th June 2012 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 6th June 2012, 05:13 PM   #3
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Another early musketeer's flask, Nuremberg, 1577-78, from one of the Graz deliveries, the body covered with green silk, the nozzle complete with its rare small top lid secured by a delicate chain, the side rings retaining their fine and original purple, yellow and green silk and wood tassels.

Next a contemporary and matching Nuremberg priming flask, 1577-78, the body covered with black silk, and retaining its original leather string.

Following an extremely fine and rare Austrian musketeer's flask, ca. 1560-70, the body covered with paper (!) and painted green, the iron mounts originally painted red in the Late-Gothic tradition and overpainted in black in the 17th century, preserved in virtually 'untouched' condition, heaviliy patinated throughout.


Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 6th June 2012 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 6th June 2012, 06:24 PM   #4
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Here is the earliest known triangular type of flask known in private hands, ca. 1540, the body covered with brown corduan leather, the oberverse fitted with a folded leather pouch that is mostly called a 'ball' pouch. Actually it is much too delicate to ever have been able and hold balls; moreover, their weight would have made the very light flask turn over. I guess that this pouch, at a time when garments were not yet fitted with pockets, was meant to receive the small accouterments badly needed by any arquebusier to clean and maintain his arquebus, such as worms, scourers, wadding, etc.:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...g+accouterments


Engraved running around the nozzle is an early style of line decoration coresponding to barrels of the 1520's-30's, while the serpent shaped scrolled form of the horizontal cut-off exactly corresponds to the grips of pan covers of matchlock arquebuses of ca. 1525-40:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...knecht+arquebus

The spring loaded grip of the nozzle lid represents its earliest form, wrought integrally with the spring which features the wide and characteristically early bow reminding of the springs on sketches by Leonardo da Vinci and Martin Löffelholz, early 16th c.

The edges are reinforced by finley nailed and etremely thin tinned iron fittings. The rounded and embossed washers of the side rings are in exactly the same style as decoration on the forestocks of two North Italian matchlock arquebuses of ca. 1540 in the Vienna colection. The belt hook on the reverse is mounted askew, which also is a very early criterion and does not show up on powder flasks after ca. 1560.
Attached to the rings is the original finely turned dark green cord.

This extremely rare type of earliest triangular flasks is first represented on a painting dated 1529, of the battle of Pavia, 1525:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=pavia+heller


The only other four surviving examples are preserved in the collection of the former Munich Arsenal, which has been closed to the public for almost twenty years. When I was there I took the photo attached last.




Best,
Michael
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Last edited by Matchlock : 6th June 2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 6th June 2012, 07:46 PM   #5
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Dear Super Michael,

What an impressive collection you have !!!
Which flasks of the two shown in my last posts would better match a schwarze reiter officer armor dating to 1560-70 ?
My best,
jm
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Old 6th June 2012, 08:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.
Dear Super Michael,

What an impressive collection you have !!!
Which flasks of the two shown in my last posts would better match a schwarze reiter officer armor dating to 1560-70 ?
My best,
jm



Thanks a lot, JM!

I have always believed, and acted accordingly, that ultimate perfection to the tiniest detail is what counts when selecting and purchasing an item that is not exactly unique.

Concerning the Schwarze Reiter, I am afraid that no flask at all would match their accouterments. From all we know, wheellock pistols and carbines were not designed to, and could not, be loaded from flask on horseback. As soon as the (usually four or five) paper cartridges contained in either the cartridge box or a side bag of the pistol holster had run out the rider would have to return behind the lines.

I wish to add that my own firing experiences with original 17th century military wheellocks have shown that after ca. 8 to 10 rounds, usually both the pan and the surroundings of the wheel have been dirtied by both powder remains and small pieces of pyrites to such an extent that a certain amount of cleaning and/or oiling is necessary. Otherwise the wheel will be hampered in rotation, both when spanning it and in the process of spinning back and firing. Thus the fact that the largest number of recesses for paper cartridges in a patron/cartridge box that I have ever seen was nine, seems to have been inspired by practical use and experience.

As to the priming powder, it is presumed that a small portion of the powder contained in the paper cartridge was employed for priming the pan before letting the main amount of the powder plus the ball down the barrel, shoving the crumbled paper into the muzzle and ramming everything down with the ramrod.

For further reference on patrons/cartridge boxes, and a ca. 1620 wheellock pistol holster found untouched and retaining remains of paper cartridges and powder, the paper from a reused piece of neswpaper and dated 1621, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ck+holster+1621

and scroll all the way down.



Best,
m

Last edited by Matchlock : 6th June 2012 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 6th June 2012, 09:35 PM   #7
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Thanks Super Michael !
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Old 7th June 2012, 01:44 AM   #8
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The two earliest pieces of period artwork depicting triangular arquebusiers' flasks:

- painting of the Battle of Pavia, 1525; by Ruprecht Heller, 1529, National Museum Stockholm (this is the earliest type with a leather pouch; see samples in author's colln. and the Munich armory above)

- tapestry on Charles V's Conquest of Tunis, 1535; note belt hook and thick, early matchcord; Madrid

For earliest matchcord, see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15668


m
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Old 8th June 2012, 04:23 PM   #9
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For a highly unusual musketeer's flask in my collection, combined with an additional priming powder compartment plus a container for paper cartridges, Nuremberg, ca. 1580-1600, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...eteer%27s+flask
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Old 9th June 2012, 06:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
For a highly unusual musketeer's flask in my collection, combined with an additional priming powder compartment plus a container for paper cartridges, Nuremberg, ca. 1580-1600, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...eteer%27s+flask



Salaams Matchlock ~ I was looking at some old copies of the Armes Dantan magazines before the days of computers! however I checked the web and noted that they now have an excellent webpage with French and English details at http://www.armesdantan.com ...They have a lot of nice stuff and are in the same place in Village Suisse in Paris with their magnificent shop..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Old 9th June 2012, 06:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Matchlock ~ I was looking at some old copies of the Armes Dantan magazines before the days of computers! however I checked the web and noted that they now have an excellent webpage with French and English details at http://www.armesdantan.com ...They have a lot of nice stuff and are in the same place in Village Suisse in Paris with their magnificent shop..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi



Salaams, Ibrahiim,

Thank you for this hint.
I am afraid though you have not been to their site for quite a few years because it has remained virtually unchanged for a very long time and their images are still very small.

Best,
Michael
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Old 11th June 2012, 01:55 PM   #12
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An Austrian musketeer's flask, ca. 1580, the body covered with thin leather, the photo showing the reverse with the belt hook.
One of the framing iron reinforcement parts can be seen sticking out loosely.
The top cap is missing from the nozzle.
Height 21.5 cm.

m
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Old 18th June 2012, 10:48 PM   #13
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For much more stuff on trapezoidal powder flasks, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15724

m
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