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Old 1st January 2024, 03:20 PM   #1
Pertinax
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Question Sword for identification

Приветствую всех участников форума, благодарю что позволили мне присоединиться к Вашему сообществу.
В моей небольшой коллекции есть необычный меч. На клинке помимо всего прочего присутствует надпись. Для идентификации предмета, я вначале предпринял попытки перевести (расшифровать) этот текст. Изучил многие «живые» и «мертвые» языки, таблички рун, обращался к профессиональным переводчикам и лингвистам, но не удается не то, что перевести, но и определить алфавит. Некоторые буквы встречаются в древнеармянской и эфиопской азбуке. Пытались читать текст в зеркальном отображении, но это тоже результатов не принесло.
В 2022 г. в течении 3 месяцев этот предмет обсуждался на российском форуме (здесь присутствуют коллеги, которые принимали участие в обсуждении). Высказывалось очень много любопытных и интересных версий, но окончательно идентифицировать предмет не удалось. Сошлись во мнении, что предмет ритуальный для мистерий или подношений к храму/святилищу не ранее конца 19-го века.
Технические характеристики: общий размер - 1005 мм, длина клинка - 850 мм, длина рукояти - 155 мм, ширина клинка у пяты - 43 мм, толщина клинка у пяты – 3 мм, длина ножен - 870 мм; вес – 1092 г. Ножны подвергались реставрации.
Буду благодарен за любые версии происхождения и принадлежности предмета, заранее благодарю.
С уважением Юрий.

Greetings to all forum participants, thank you for allowing me to join your community.
I have an unusual sword in my small collection. On the blade, among other things, there is an inscription. To identify the subject, I first made attempts to translate (decipher) this text. I have studied many “living” and “dead” languages, rune tablets, contacted professional translators and linguists, but I cannot not only translate, but also determine the alphabet. Some letters are found in the ancient Armenian and Ethiopian alphabet. We tried to read the text in mirror image, but this also did not bring results.
In 2022, this subject was discussed at a Russian forum for 3 months (colleagues who took part in the discussion are present here). A lot of curious and interesting versions were expressed, but it was not possible to definitively identify the object. It was agreed that the object was a ritual item for mysteries or offerings to a temple/sanctuary no earlier than the end of the 19th century.
Technical characteristics: overall size - 1005 mm, blade length - 850 mm, handle length - 155 mm, blade width at the heel - 43 mm, blade thickness at the heel - 3 mm, sheath length - 870 mm; weight – 1092 g. The scabbard has been restored.
I would be grateful for any versions of the origin and ownership of the item, thank you in advance.
Regards, Yuri.
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Old 1st January 2024, 06:22 PM   #2
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Old 1st January 2024, 08:14 PM   #3
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Old 2nd January 2024, 07:28 AM   #4
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The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

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Old 2nd January 2024, 08:30 AM   #5
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Seems to be a well known combination. I thought this is a good interpretation. As I said I am probably way off and wrong. Just another way of looking at the possible origins of the sword.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 09:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.
Привет Тим!
Большое спасибо, очень интересная версия. Я, к сожалению, не владею английским языком, поэтому пользуюсь переводчиком. В стране, где я живу нет термина Кавказская Албания. Где этот регион находится?

Hello Tim!
Thank you very much, very interesting version. Unfortunately, I do not speak English, so I use a translator. In the country where I live there is no term Caucasian Albania. Where is this region located?
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Old 2nd January 2024, 11:01 AM   #7
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Surely we must be looking at a long eared owl. The other things look like human bird transformation? Could the man on the grip be Amirani Georgian hero? he has a dog Q'ursha. Cannot find anything about an owl but some stuff about eagles. Transformation in the myths could be to an owl. Just having some fun on a wet and windy holiday.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 12:56 PM   #8
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I can't help but be reminded of a Husa Khampa from Tibet even though the inscriptions obviously point in a totally different direction. Take a look at mine: It somehow got several similar features in overall shape.
Best
Thomas
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Old 2nd January 2024, 03:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomato77 View Post
I can't help but be reminded of a Husa Khampa from Tibet even though the inscriptions obviously point in a totally different direction. Take a look at mine: It somehow got several similar features in overall shape.
Best
Thomas
Привет Томас!
Когда я приобретал этот меч он был заявлен как – тибетский церемониальный меч типа «дпа’дам», но в дальнейшем в ходе обсуждений эта версия не подтвердилась. На форуме присутствуют эксперты по Тибету, Китаю, Кавказу, Востоку которые принимали участие в прошлом обсуждении. Я надеюсь, что они выскажут свои версии.
Hello Thomas!

When I acquired this sword, he was declared as a Tibetan ceremonial sword of the dpa’dam, but in the future, during the discussion, this version was not confirmed. On the forum there are experts on Tibet, China, the Caucasus, the east of which took part in the last discussion. I hope they will express their versions.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 04:22 PM   #10
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Default caucasian albania

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Old 2nd January 2024, 05:28 PM   #11
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Спасибо Тим, но по мнению историков албанское государство на территории Кавказа прекратило свое существование в IX веке, а обсуждаемый предмет под этот период не подходит.

Thanks to Tim, but according to historians, the Albanian state in the Caucasus ceased to exist in the 9th century, and the subject under discussion is not suitable for this period.
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Old 2nd January 2024, 09:07 PM   #12
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Presumably this is the alphabet in question? I'm not seeing most of the characters on the blade though.

Church Slavonic also has some overlap maybe.

Last edited by werecow; 2nd January 2024 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 10:52 AM   #13
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The script might depend on how well it is cut into the blade. The person whow cut it might have been illiterate and copying poorly written script?
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Old 3rd January 2024, 12:10 PM   #14
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looking around came across this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1655

the sword MAY be Armenian or Caucasian but is it me or this blade is just too crisp to be really old ?



I would suggest sending a mail to this Armenian museum

https://historymuseum.am/en/հայաստան...#1381;ն/
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Old 3rd January 2024, 02:16 PM   #15
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Cool.
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Old 3rd January 2024, 09:34 PM   #16
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It isn't Armenian, though some of the characters are similar to Armenian, also to Russian. They were likely intended to seem like a foreign inscription, rather than any particular meaning per se.

This work was done in the general region of N. Iran, possibly Azarbaijan, after 1900. It was most likely made for the Shi'ite Ashura.
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Old 4th January 2024, 08:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot View Post
It isn't Armenian, though some of the characters are similar to Armenian, also to Russian. They were likely intended to seem like a foreign inscription, rather than any particular meaning per se.

This work was done in the general region of N. Iran, possibly Azarbaijan, after 1900. It was most likely made for the Shi'ite Ashura.
Спасибо Оливер Пинчот
Каджарское происхождение предмета очень интересная версия, но надпись опровергает эту версию. По мнению экспертов имитация любого другого шрифта на персидском предмете каджарского периода абсолютно исключена.
В ходе своих поисков, я пришел к выводу, что предмет нужно рассматривать в комплексе. На нем слишком много неопознанных и противоречивых элементов. Возможно, разгадка будет найдена если будет найден подобный меч.
По надписи – текст повторяется, похоже на некое заклинание.

Thanks Oliver Pinchot
The Qajar origin of the object is a very interesting version, but the inscription refutes this version. According to experts, imitation of any other script on a Persian object from the Qajar period is absolutely impossible.
During my search, I came to the conclusion that the subject needs to be considered in its entirety. There are too many unidentified and contradictory elements on it. Perhaps the answer will be found if a similar sword is found.
According to the inscription, the text is repeated, it looks like some kind of spell.
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Old 16th February 2024, 12:07 PM   #18
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I think there is some similarity to the artwork to this piece? almost the same hand?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29643
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Old 16th February 2024, 06:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
I think there is some similarity to the artwork to this piece? almost the same hand?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29643
Hi Tim

IMHO there is only a slight resemblance in appearance. The technique is different.

Pay attention to the shape of the sword hilt and the element that I highlighted. This detail has not yet been found on other swords.

Also, take a close look at the men on the handle, they are clearly Asian in appearance.

Regards, Yuri
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