hilt material ?

Gustav · 13th January 2010, 01:31 AM

The second part.

It seems to be clear, there is an iconographic ensemble, and there are many hilts which are bearing the complete ensemble. In the book by J.Greffioz on hilts you can find one on page 44, which seems to have some age, and another on page 56.

Some details are more clearly visible in Sajens example, page 2 in this thread.

This ensemble contains roughly estimated (from top to toe): sometimes more, sometimes less clear "visor" with crown elements, two pairs of wings, two emblems with radiant rays ("sun") and draperie at the base.

Interesting are the wings. There are clearly visible "dragon" wings, but also, abowe them, "normal" wings with feathers. Is there a possibility, those wings are the substitute for the complete dragon and winged horse depiction on a usual landhian pulasir hilt?

An interesting "in between" form from an older thread (I deeply apologise for using these pics), with a complete horse (instead of the front sun), the dragon wings behind the horse's wings, and the sun on the back of the hilt (see the images). There are also draperies at the base (like on Dannys hilt), and something resembling a crown with a central, vertical band on the "visor", which also occurs on all examples of the complete ensemble of Danny's.

The different elements are of course the arrow (a coat of arms emblem?) and the rudimental epaulets, and the "chinese" meander at the same base, which (very interesting!) changes almost to a draperie at the back, below the sun.

After this I suppose, there could be a possibility, that Dannys Ensemble as such were established later then landhian pulasir, becouse of dissolving of certain elements (the bodys of dragon and horse, if they are meant at all

), and becouse of mixing of elements. Also I think, there is a undeniable european influence in this hilt.

Gustav · 13th January 2010, 01:52 AM

This vertical, central band on the visor seems to be like a sort of decorative feather. On Sajens example it is leaning forwards.

Gustav · 14th January 2010, 02:07 PM

Dear All,

I found in net an image of a Madurese wrongko. You can see the same form of crown with a decorative feather in the middle (the form on the "visor" of the hilt, regarded in this thread) , flanked by a dragon and a winged horse. So, I think, there is a strong possibility, this ensemble is related to landhian pulasir, there is a crown element, and therefore it has european influences.

Rick · 14th January 2010, 03:19 PM

I find myself wondering at what point in time these symbols became simply motifs and began to be combined for aesthetic purposes only ?

Or do we think this is not the case ?

Gustav · 14th January 2010, 07:18 PM

Yes, the iconographical ensemble of Dannys hilt seems to be an "eclectic" one also to me, or more "eclectic" then landhian pulasir.

But nevertheless, at first we probably should identificate the symbols (at the beginning of this thread there was an opinion, there is no flying horse, no dutch crown depicted (so no european influences). Now we have a pair of dragon and pair of (very possibly) flying horse wings, with a specific kind of crown, also depicted on a wrongko, as well as draperie), and pursuit their meanings, as far as possible, and their changes. I think it is very important.

Of course there is the crucial barrier between symbol and ornament, but I have the feeling, this barrier is different in the euro-american and eastern or specifically javanese art. I may be wrong, of course. One should keep in mind, that the euro-american culture (or the progressive part of it) at latest since 1920 is almost ornament-free, and so for us today ornament is always something exotic and foreign, and I must say, meaningless.

As I wrote in a previous post, this iconographic ensemble is later then landhian pulasir in my oppinion, becouse of advanced "hiding" or dissolving of elements (the bodys of dragon and horse), duplicating them (the "sun" motive).

But this specific kind of crown I have never see on landhian pulasir, and never on such "visor" place on another kind of hilt, just on this one more or less related and probably slightly older ensemble from post 79 (of course, I have a very small experience), and I came across of a couple of such hilts now, who are similar one to another (just as landhian pulasir are). So there is a certain stabile group of elements, and even if it were created at 1900, it is interesting to pursuit these elements and this certain combination of elements.

13th January 2010, 01:31 AM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	The second part. It seems to be clear, there is an iconographic ensemble, and there are many hilts which are bearing the complete ensemble. In the book by J.Greffioz on hilts you can find one on page 44, which seems to have some age, and another on page 56. Some details are more clearly visible in Sajens example, page 2 in this thread. This ensemble contains roughly estimated (from top to toe): sometimes more, sometimes less clear "visor" with crown elements, two pairs of wings, two emblems with radiant rays ("sun") and draperie at the base. Interesting are the wings. There are clearly visible "dragon" wings, but also, abowe them, "normal" wings with feathers. Is there a possibility, those wings are the substitute for the complete dragon and winged horse depiction on a usual landhian pulasir hilt? An interesting "in between" form from an older thread (I deeply apologise for using these pics), with a complete horse (instead of the front sun), the dragon wings behind the horse's wings, and the sun on the back of the hilt (see the images). There are also draperies at the base (like on Dannys hilt), and something resembling a crown with a central, vertical band on the "visor", which also occurs on all examples of the complete ensemble of Danny's. The different elements are of course the arrow (a coat of arms emblem?) and the rudimental epaulets, and the "chinese" meander at the same base, which (very interesting!) changes almost to a draperie at the back, below the sun. After this I suppose, there could be a possibility, that Dannys Ensemble as such were established later then landhian pulasir, becouse of dissolving of certain elements (the bodys of dragon and horse, if they are meant at all ), and becouse of mixing of elements. Also I think, there is a undeniable european influence in this hilt. Attached Images

14th January 2010, 02:07 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Dear All, I found in net an image of a Madurese wrongko. You can see the same form of crown with a decorative feather in the middle (the form on the "visor" of the hilt, regarded in this thread) , flanked by a dragon and a winged horse. So, I think, there is a strong possibility, this ensemble is related to landhian pulasir, there is a crown element, and therefore it has european influences. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 14th January 2010 at 02:47 PM.

14th January 2010, 07:18 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Yes, the iconographical ensemble of Dannys hilt seems to be an "eclectic" one also to me, or more "eclectic" then landhian pulasir. But nevertheless, at first we probably should identificate the symbols (at the beginning of this thread there was an opinion, there is no flying horse, no dutch crown depicted (so no european influences). Now we have a pair of dragon and pair of (very possibly) flying horse wings, with a specific kind of crown, also depicted on a wrongko, as well as draperie), and pursuit their meanings, as far as possible, and their changes. I think it is very important. Of course there is the crucial barrier between symbol and ornament, but I have the feeling, this barrier is different in the euro-american and eastern or specifically javanese art. I may be wrong, of course. One should keep in mind, that the euro-american culture (or the progressive part of it) at latest since 1920 is almost ornament-free, and so for us today ornament is always something exotic and foreign, and I must say, meaningless. As I wrote in a previous post, this iconographic ensemble is later then landhian pulasir in my oppinion, becouse of advanced "hiding" or dissolving of elements (the bodys of dragon and horse), duplicating them (the "sun" motive). But this specific kind of crown I have never see on landhian pulasir, and never on such "visor" place on another kind of hilt, just on this one more or less related and probably slightly older ensemble from post 79 (of course, I have a very small experience), and I came across of a couple of such hilts now, who are similar one to another (just as landhian pulasir are). So there is a certain stabile group of elements, and even if it were created at 1900, it is interesting to pursuit these elements and this certain combination of elements. Last edited by Gustav; 14th January 2010 at 10:04 PM. Reason: the word "eclectic"

13th January 2010, 01:52 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	This vertical, central band on the visor seems to be like a sort of decorative feather. On Sajens example it is leaning forwards.

14th January 2010, 03:19 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I find myself wondering at what point in time these symbols became simply motifs and began to be combined for aesthetic purposes only ? Or do we think this is not the case ?