Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   hilt material ? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11226)

danny1976 18th December 2009 08:20 PM

hilt material ?
 
4 Attachment(s)
Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny

asomotif 18th December 2009 09:26 PM

Maybe sperm whale ? (potvis in dutch)

guwaya 19th December 2009 12:44 AM

hilt material ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danny1976
Hello,

I did recieved this hilt today .

On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol.
I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not
sure what kind.

The structure is verry closed.

Thanks in advance,

Danny



Hello,

could you send a picture from the hole and its surrounding?


guwaya

danny1976 19th December 2009 10:36 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,


Danny

Michel 19th December 2009 11:06 AM

Ivory ?
 
Hi Danny,

Are you sure it is Ivory ?
Have you made the traditional hot needle test?
The lack of sharpness in the details make me think it could be molded.
I may be totally wrong and in that case I apologize for such an iconoclastic view of your hilt.
Regards
Michel

danny1976 19th December 2009 11:15 AM

Hi Michel,

No need to apologize,

Indeed i did make the test and al that happens is a red hot needle that wil bend when i push i against the hilt.

So no plastic or someting like it.

guwaya 19th December 2009 01:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by danny1976
Hi Guwaya ,

Here a extra photo,


Danny



Hi Danny,

Thank you for the extra photo.

At the first view I thought as asomotif that it could be spermwhale ivory but now I think it is not as I am missing the bull's eye. I have no idea at the moment - sorry.

Guwaya

Rick 19th December 2009 03:40 PM

Danny, I think it looks like Marine Ivory .
Note the interesting 'swirls' near the base in your first and second pictures



I would not stake my life on it though !! :eek:

Marcokeris 19th December 2009 05:49 PM

Also i think it's marine ivory

kulbuntet 19th December 2009 07:10 PM

Hi Danny,

Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825. Got it from Peter?

Regards Michel, amsterdam

David 19th December 2009 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulbuntet
Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825.

Hi Michel. It would probably be helpful if you could explain exactly what characteristic of this hilt date it as being pre-1825? :)

vampire 19th December 2009 08:44 PM

hallo
danny
nice hilt ,but no ivory
what is nice to i have allmost the same hilt on a keris
given to me in indonesia in 1970
simlar but not the same ,mine one is bone
greet jan
:p :p :p

danny1976 19th December 2009 09:09 PM

Hi Michel,

Yes it,s from peter.

But pleas explain why you think its from before 1825 ?

And has some one a hilt with the same figure ? I do only know the ones
with the horse , crown , epaulets etc...

Danny

asomotif 19th December 2009 09:35 PM

The structure and color makes me think of a hilt I have.
See this old thread :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=raja+abala

Quote:
Sure its marine ivory

Ok, but which animal / define marine ivory ?
There are quite a lot of sea mamals that can provide teeth that are workable :
Sperm whale ? orca/killerwhale ? seacow/dujong ? Walrus ? Narwal ?

David 19th December 2009 09:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire
hallo
danny
nice hilt ,but no ivory
what is nice to i have allmost the same hilt on a keris
given to me in indonesia in 1970
simlar but not the same ,mine one is bone
greet jan
:p :p :p

Jan, i am certainly no expert on ivory, but there are some really obvious differences between bone and ivory that even i can see in close-up photographs like these. The "growth ring" type structure that is evident in these photos most definitely identifies this hilt as ivory. Perhaps yours is indeed bone, or maybe it is ivory and you are just unaware. Post some close-ups and perhaps we will be able to help you identify it. :)
The question that is more difficult, at least for me, is what type of ivory is it. I also lean toward marine ivory.

David 19th December 2009 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Ok, but which animal / define marine ivory ?
There are quite a lot of sea mamals that can provise teeth that are workable :
Sperm whale ? orca/killerwhale ? seacow/dujong ? Walrus ? Narwal ?

Well Willem, you are certainly getting beyond my ability to differentiate. :)

danny1976 19th December 2009 09:50 PM

Gentleman its getting a intrseting discusion. :D

I hope that we can figure it out what kind of animal did use this teeth to eat
before it did became a keris hilt .?

And also i.m realy curious how old it could be.

asomotif 19th December 2009 10:11 PM

There have been several threads where ID-ing ivory was discussed.

A recent one with info / links and examples was this one.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...+identification

Quote:
Well Willem, you are certainly getting beyond my ability to differentiate.

Hello David, at this moment I am also just able to ask the questions, and not yet to answer them :o

Rick 19th December 2009 10:33 PM

I'm still thinking Potvis as you suggested, Henk err, Willem .

I'd be very interested in seeing an example of a bone hilt that looks anything like this .

Lack of dots would negate Hippo as the source .
Very nice patina and wear on this jejeran.

I love the Sun face .

asomotif 19th December 2009 10:39 PM

Quote:
At the first view I thought as asomotif that it could be spermwhale ivory but now I think it is not as I am missing the bull's eye.

Hello Guwaya,
Do you have examples of this bull eye effect ?

Quote:
I'm still thinking Potvis as you suggested, Henk .

Suppose you meant me ? ;)
Best regards,
Willem

Rick 19th December 2009 10:50 PM

Sorry Willem . :o ;)

guwaya 20th December 2009 02:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Hello Guwaya,
Do you have examples of this bull eye effect ?


Suppose you meant me ? ;)
Best regards,
Willem



Do you have examples of this bull eye effect ?

Sorry - but I don't have.
Guwaya

sirek 20th December 2009 12:52 PM

Hello Danny, maybe this is interesting for you,

in a Dutch-forum it's said:

that the image suggest: the sun of Solo.

The (royal) Madurese wanted to show that their family was related to the Sunan, (See the arms of the Sunan: there are sunbeams in processed)

(hope I have translated well) :)

to see the original topic with picture:

http://www.dekris.nl/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65

danny1976 20th December 2009 01:25 PM

Hallo Sirek,

Thank you for youre input.

It,s a intresting opinion , is the some one else that also have this opinion?


Sirek if you have more intresting info you can pm me if you want (
gewoon nederlands )

regards,

Danny

David 20th December 2009 01:46 PM

Well if that is the same Semar who posts here perhaps he will join this conversation with further information. I love the carving of the one on the other forum. Can you post it here Semar, for comparison? :)

vampire 20th December 2009 01:56 PM

hallo david
 
hai again david
i do not say ,his kris is bone ,mine is
but i do not think it is ivory like the stuff from a elephant
i might come from a other animal
photos on forum ,yes we can do and yes we will do
afther i made mine trip to asia
mine photo are never good and sharp
so i will let some one do it
to go back to the hilt it is very nice ,but i woder a bit
over the sharpness ,like michel did say
grt vampire :) :) :)

Rick 20th December 2009 03:19 PM

I think we are looking at real wear and patina here Jan .

If that sucker is molded then someone went to an awful lot of trouble to create a forgery .

vampire 20th December 2009 04:00 PM

hallo
rick mine old friend
a moment of peace
i did say nothing about a forgery
and i also did not take the word molded in mine reply
only if i compare it with mine pice ,it seems to miss
some sharpness yes do not read me wrong
one thihg it comes out of indonesia oke
i have spend some years there working with
pertamina oil-comp
i see the hilt is from there and it is no elephant
ivory but a other animal
and for all reasons is it handmade also in asia some
are made with other meth, oke
the big question is ,is danny happy with it
yes oke i only did try to put mine dime in this
and rick i think we started of on the wrong foot yes
let say i did oke ,soon it is new year let it be
give me your adress will mail you nice book st claus
grt jan :p :p :p

danny1976 20th December 2009 04:53 PM

Rick,

i also think it,s realy age wear on the hilt.

i can post this one on the other forum to look if there wil come a reaction.

regards,

danny

sirek 20th December 2009 05:26 PM

2 Attachment(s)
because the growth rings I still think that this is made from a natural material :rolleyes:

maybe for comparison some foto's of a molded grip I own:


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