hilt material ?

[danny1976]

Hi Detlef,

Nice hilt ! Thanks for posting.

The same kind of sun , i didn,t know what it ment .


regards,

danny

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by danny1976

The same kind of sun , i didn,t know what it ment

Posible does the sun stands for the sun in the Solo coat of arms. With this would a (royal)maduran show that his familie was affiliated with the Sunan of Solo. See the coat of arms of Solo, it has sun rays in it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Michel for advising us of your reasoning process used in estimation of age of Madura keris hilts.

I believe it is reasonable to assume that following the alignment of Madurese rulers with Dutch interests, symbols associated with the Dutch began to appear in Madurese keris dress and other Madurese ornamentation. A nominal date of 1825 is probably reasonable for the commencement of this practice.

However, although the presence of symbols associated with the Dutch may be able to be used to support an estimate of production time after 1825, the absence of such symbols cannot be used to support a production time prior to 1825.

The relationship between the royal houses of Surakarta and Suminep is well documented, and the speculation that the presence of a symbol on this hilt, that appears to be the sun, could represent such relationship is interesting. My personal opinion is that when we indulge in such speculation it is probably advisable to provide some evidence in support of the idea. The field of keris study is riddled with good ideas, and very often, these good ideas tend to become accepted fact, but "accepted fact" lacking any evidence in support of it.

It is very dangerous to hypothesize in the absence of evidence or logical argument, and most especially in respect of a culture and time that differs from our own.

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you Michel for advising us of your reasoning process used in estimation of age of Madura keris hilts.

I believe it is reasonable to assume that following the alignment of Madurese rulers with Dutch interests, symbols associated with the Dutch began to appear in Madurese keris dress and other Madurese ornamentation. A nominal date of 1825 is probably reasonable for the commencement of this practice.

However, although the presence of symbols associated with the Dutch may be able to be used to support an estimate of production time after 1825, the absence of such symbols cannot be used to support a production time prior to 1825.

The relationship between the royal houses of Surakarta and Suminep is well documented, and the speculation that the presence of a symbol on this hilt, that appears to be the sun, could represent such relationship is interesting. My personal opinion is that when we indulge in such speculation it is probably advisable to provide some evidence in support of the idea. The field of keris study is riddled with good ideas, and very often, these good ideas tend to become accepted fact, but "accepted fact" lacking any evidence in support of it.

It is very dangerous to hypothesize in the absence of evidence or logical argument, and most especially in respect of a culture and time that differs from our own.

Hi Alan,
Yes i do agree with your point that the absence of these indicators is not a garuantee tht the age of a hilt is older than 1825. But that is a general thing with indicators, its a indication of posibility. That combined with other indicators like material, other paterns, the state of the material, sometimes even a feeling and so on, can give a good impression. Maybe in some times can give some "proof" or suport that it must be of certain age, atleast give a good estimation. Iff not so, how can it be that museums or other experts can give a clear age to a hilt or blade or other material? I personaly dont think that carbon dating is used on all things in collections of museums. Panting can be indentified and given a age by the painter.. his time of life, style in a erra of his live.. But it cant ben done with hilts.. Maybe you can suport us ith some info about how its been done, or about some other indicators. My knowledge on this is still in my eyes limited..and always willing to learn and know more.

About the suporting info for the sun on Danny's hilt. One of the experienced members of the Dutch keris study group have told us. I do have confidence that he does have done reseach and got suporting info of this. But i have posted it as a posibility, not as a statement or fact. I do apreciate and agree with your caution to not see a post of this as a fact. but if i or others dont post there posibilitys it would be difficult to get a good view and later to result of fact. That is why forums do exist, even in the old times. To get a agreement of accepted truth, by reasoning and discusion. I wil try to ask the person iff he would like to give me and all people here some more info on this. Maybe posted by me, or him self.

Regards Michel

Ps link to hilt with also a sun. Link

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Guwaya for your comprehensive response to my post.

Yes, I did misunderstand your "hanging the ladder to high", I interpreted this in the sense of the well known expression "setting the bar too high". I have nothing but extreme respect for the gentleman behind Achim Weihrauch, and I most certainly would never knowingly, nor willingly compromise him.

As to obtaining accurate, factual or truthful answers within the context of Javanese society.
Yes, I am completely familiar with Javanese practice in this regard, on all levels.

"Mau kemana Pak?"

"Kantor pos 'Bu"

langsung ke pasar.

It is not expected, nor to be expected, that truthful answers will be given to any question. We need to feel the truth, not try to encapsulate it in words, moreover, gratuitous truths are held to be extremely ill mannered. This Javanese idea of the concept of "truth" is probably the principal reason why so many relationships, both business and personal, fail between Javanese people and people from a western culture. The answer given to a direct question is very often the answer that the person who has been asked believes that the asker wishes to receive. This is especially true when dealing with foriegners.

Thus, in matters of keris research, perhaps the only way a foriegner will get straight answers is if that foriegner is adopted as family by somebody who is able to teach him. As long as he remains outside Javanese family society, he will forever be an outsider with the consequent need to be treated with caution.

Thank you clarifying the matter of Achim Weihrauch's present location.

Regretably I cannot read German, so I will never be able to judge for myself the extent of the excellence of Achim Weihrauch's work. I thank you for your opinion in this regard.

Kulbuntet.

Thank you for your further comments.

We all form our opinions upon the basis of our own experience. I do not ever wish to force my opinions upon another.

My experience with museums and other "experts" is that very often they are guessing or relying upon things such as provenance when they affix ages to things such as keris.

Since keris hilt patterns from several hundred years ago are still being carved today, and were also carved in the recent past, the only indicators we have of age, apart from provenance , is wear and patina, then age becomes an informed guess based on experience.

Speaking for myself, I know of no way other than what I have just written that will give any indication of the age of a keris hilt.

Re the sun.

I eagerly await further information on this motif.

[guwaya]

"I have nothing but extreme respect for the gentleman behind Achim Weihrauch, and I most certainly would never knowingly, nor willingly compromise him."

Thank you for your respond A. G. Masey. I would like to add a small final comment.

The main interest of both persons, an I mean main interest is the technical aspect of the keris blade and less the ethnological.

What is dissapointing for me is that Achim Weihrauch didn't give more HORMAT in his dissertation to the importance of the man behind him. That he was to involved in these formal tecnocratic academic game to honor the officials which are responsible for receiving the titel but not berani to bring out more the benefit of his primary non-academic fomenter who's life is the keris.

I don't know when Warung Kopi was grounded but possibly - and carefully I say possibly - this forum might not exist without the engagement of that gentleman.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Guwaya.

I understand your comments, and would prefer to reserve comment in both instances.

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kulbuntet.

Thank you for your further comments.

We all form our opinions upon the basis of our own experience. I do not ever wish to force my opinions upon another.

My experience with museums and other "experts" is that very often they are guessing or relying upon things such as provenance when they affix ages to things such as keris.

Since keris hilt patterns from several hundred years ago are still being carved today, and were also carved in the recent past, the only indicators we have of age, apart from provenance , is wear and patina, then age becomes an informed guess based on experience.

Speaking for myself, I know of no way other than what I have just written that will give any indication of the age of a keris hilt.

Re the sun.

I eagerly await further information on this motif.

Alan,
Yes it is difficult to get sure about age.. But iff we dont try to use indicators we would never be able to give a age to a piece, more that its new or its old.. I remember someone that once told me that giveing a age to al wilah without feeling it, is almost imposilbe. That could be the same with ukiran or other thing..Dont know for sure, but on a forum it would be good to try to give atleast a impression for coninuation in a discusion. Several opinions could form a good impression maybe even an accepted "truth".

About the Sun,
I have asked the person of the dutch study group, and he was verry kind to give me a answer. Unluckly im not in possesion of the articles or publications mentioned. I hope to get in possesion of them, so i can suport the posiblity of the story written above (former post of me).
I will translate his reaction in englisch,

cultureel Indie deel 8 over Madurese krisgrepen. [[[Cultural indie part 8, about Maduran Keris hilts]]]

M Kerner,van Dapperen in Nion en Greffioz schrijven ook over Madurese grepen [[[M kerner, Van Dapperen in Nion And Greffioz also write about Maduran hilt]]]

On this moment i can not support nor denie the pobilility or fact that the publications wil support the info. I hope that more info will come soon, maybe one of the other (Dutch) people here has one or more info about this.

Regards Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

Michel, I agree with you in that the assessment of the age of any object depends upon the assumptions we can form from indications provided by physical characteristics, where a verifiable provenance is not available.

In my post # 54 I attempted to make the point that although the presence of a particular symbol may be able to be linked to a particular starting point that can be dated, the absence of this symbol does not necessarily mean that the object which fails to bear the symbol does in fact pre-date the use of the symbol.

Let me try to illustrate this logic with a simple example:-

here in Australia we began to receive TV broadcasts during the mid-1950's

if we were to see list of the contents of a typical Australian lounge room from the 20th century, and that lounge room contained a TV set, we could say with certainty that it was a lounge room from after the 1950's

however, if were were to see list of the contents of a typical Australian lounge room, and there was no TV set present, could we say with any certainty that we were looking at an Australian lounge room of the period prior to the 1950's ?

No, we most definitely could not draw that conclusion.

Similarly, the absence in a Madura hilt of symbolism relating to the Dutch cannot be taken as evidence that the hilt dates from a time before Madurese involvement with the Dutch.

I have a lot of Madura hilts. I cannot with any certainty tell the age of any of them. I can see condition in respect of wear and patina, and based upon my general knowledge of the aging characteristics of various materials I am perhaps prepared to hazard a guess at age, but for me, that's just about where it stops.


Re the sun.

Martin Kerner was a very likeable man.However, he was a very likeable man with a lot of rather peculiar and unsubstantiated opinions in respect of the keris. If Martin links the sun on Madura hilts with the Surakarta court symbol, I would need to know exactly how he came to that opinion. Regretably he did not provide very many references in his works.

The other reference:-

cultureel Indie deel 8 over Madurese krisgrepen. [[[Cultural indie part 8, about Maduran Keris hilts]]]


I am not familiar with, however, I would be looking for similar verification in that reference also:- what was the original source of the information and was it verified, if so, how?

I'm sorry Michel, but my attitude towards keris related information has become more and more difficult as I have grown older. I have come across too much hearsay and opinion presented as fact to allow me to accept any sort of spongy reference as evidence of fact.


However, setting all that to one side for the moment, lets look at the use of a symbol which appears to be the sun, in these Madura hilts.

Sun symbolism is widespread around the world. It is found in both Europe and the Orient.It is a common symbol in many forms in Indonesia, and although it is found in Indonesian localities as far back as the bronze age, its appearance as a motif after the early classical period can probably be attributed to the Jawa-Hindu period.It very often appears as a chakra in Indonesian art, but once the motif moves into the Islamic era, that chakra is sometimes transformed into a flower.

If we wish to claim the sun symbol on a Madura hilt as evidence of association with the Court of Surakarta we perhaps need to question exactly why it should be the sun that has been singled out as the relative representative symbol.The Surakarta court emblem contains the sun, moon, stars, and the globe of the earth, all within a shield surmounted by the crown of Mataram. It symbolises the universe, and the orientation of the globe of the earth places Surakarta at the centre of the globe, a visualisation of the title "Pakubuwana" --- the world nail:- the pin at the centre of the earth, the thought being that it is this pin which holds the earth together --- don't ask me to justify this attitude, I'm just the messenger.

If we look at old representations of this emblem they are not backed by a sunburst, but are simple shields, often as a part of a European style coat of arms.

The emblem that we are now familiar with which shows a burst of radiating rays of the sun behind the shield is stylistically in accordance with PBX, and although I have no evidence for a commencement date for this style of the emblem, it would surprise me considerably if good old PBX was not responsible for this design.

As I have mentioned, the symbolism of the Surakarta emblem is of the universe under the crown of Mataram.

There is a style of Madura hilt that bears a crown. In Madura, this style is attributed to the old kabupaten of Pamekesan:- note Pamekesan was a kabupaten, a regency, not a principality nor a kingdom. Does this crown also indicate an association with Surakarta, as the Crown of Mataram? do not know the answer to this question, however, if an answer were to be offered, it would need to be checked, cross checked and verified.

Given free reign we can produce all sorts of interesting conjectures.