Moro hilt, a question of region.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gents,

I have hundreds of notes and extracts here from Congress to well known authors and the information you have is very much what many online history books tell but it differs greatly across many researching facets. The battle of Bayan was 1902 as indicated but much more surrounds this scene.

There are records I have of Skirmishes prior to this event with the camp being in these notes and being involved in conflict enroute in 1901. It is a foggy journey and one that will come to light in time but things are getting far ahead of where I wanted to take this for the moment.

The provenance is something I wanted to leave out of the picture in its entirety as it is glossing over to much foundation work that needs to be done first and whilst I appreciate your interest in providing information to sustain or dispel the tag, first thing is first and back to the subject at hand for me, would this be considered a Kampalin form the region of southern lake Lanao?

Battara, you note the LURKER as saying the tag was missing, is this fact and if so, do they know the where abouts of it?
Actually, if anyone knows where it is, it belongs with this sword.
If all proves to be correct with further study of aquisition and decent, someone has tampered with a very important piece of Moro/American History.
I must also note a number of enquiries have already come through my site asking if this is for sale, I will state for the record, it is not.
It was my hope to present this to the Pershing Museum should it all ring true as that both the sword and the tag belong there for all to view and understand.

Thanks

Gav

[Spunjer]

hi gav,

sword collection might be my hobby, but first and foremost, filipino history, specifically moro regions is my passion. i'm afraid that none of what i mentioned came from wikipedia, or any website online if that's what you're inferring. these were based on what i know, and what i've researched. to cite my references, besides books published in that era, i would have to say, came from actual annual reports made by commanding officers in that region during the moro campaigns, diaries passages specifically from pershing, davies, et al, unpublished memoirs, letters, etc, which can be readily had using the local college libraries. also, we have libraries here in ohio which i have done my researches, notably the rutherford hayes museum, who's son, webb hayes was an ardent ethnographic collector, and was one of the first american to broker with the moros while the philippine war was happening. also, there's lots of records at the mckinley museum, who, incidentally was the president of that era when the war broke out. these presidential libraries are but two hour drive from where i live. i have consulted for the hayes museum as well, that's why you will see my name noted various times on their website. all my passion was a direct result in trying to learn more about my collection, and the history tied with it. yes, it's nice to know the significance of those squiggles on the blade, but to know the history behind them is more satisfying, knowing what they were thinking about, etc. etc. it gives one a whole new perspective.

yes you are right that there are much more that surrounds the scene during that fateful day in may 2, 1902. the americans didn't just wake up that day and decided to have a war with the moros. you're right in that there were skirmishes, which led to lots and lots of bicharas, or parleys, and were primarily being made prior and leading to this first battle, and that was what pershing was hedging on, in preventing the battle. but you have a veteran from the then recent indian wars and medal of honor recipient who's mantra was "a good moro is a dead moro" (baldwin), you have an inevitable battle on hand. but this i can assure you, battle of camp vickers never happened, and capt pershing became the senior commander of this post AFTER the battle of pandapatan. and none of these happened in 1901, since all the aforementioned incidents didn't happen until 1902. camp vickers, the battle of pandapatan, capt pershing as the commanding officer, etc.. all 1902 headlines.
if indeed you have the notes and extracts, it should back up everything what i have posted so far.

not to sustain or dispel the tag itself, rather, it's what traveled with the kampilan through time. sometimes, we get our clue from the sword itself, telling us where it originated from, usually by the art form that has some similarity with the okir of that region. but then again there are times when these swords remain quiet, and what we have to go with are those incessant tags that has volumes to say, whether we like the final result or not. i don't understand why you would put the provenance aside, when it offers the best logical clue. if what the tags says it's true, wouldn't it be safe to say then that this was owned by a maranao warrior, hence a lake lanao kampilan?
this particular kampilan attracted me for a couple reasons: the completeness of it, and one of the finest i've seen.

if your intention is to present that kampilan to pershing's museum, that would be cool. understand tho, that with just that tag backing it up, it will never be 100 percent certain that this was a part of his collection. fortunately, he already have an extensive collection of moro weapons.
what is certain though, and without a shadow of a doubt, is if you present this to the National Museum in the philippines, or better yet, at the Aga Khan Museum in Mindanao State University (Marawi City, Lanao del sur), the moro people will get to view and understand this fantastic specimen of their ancestor.

regards
ron

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

if your intention is to present that kampilan to pershing's museum, that would be cool. understand tho, that with just that tag backing it up, it will never be 100 percent certain that this was a part of his collection. fortunately, he already have an extensive collection of moro weapons.
what is certain though, and without a shadow of a doubt, is if you present this to the National Museum in the philippines, or better yet, at the Aga Khan Museum in Mindanao State University (Marawi City, Lanao del sur), the moro people will get to view and understand this fantastic specimen of their ancestor.

I would second this. IF you are really feeling the need to donate this to a museum, why not give it back to the people of origin?
BTW, i doubt that someone "tampered" with this tag. It probably just fell off. The string broke or the paper tore. It's obviously old. I don't see a need for conspiracy to explain this and i can't see why anyone would remove it just to hide information or provenance. The tag was probably placed there a while ago, but long enough after the event so that particular facts (dates, names) may have become confused or blurred.
Is there any chance we could see the blade of this kamp? I don't know alot about kamps, but perhaps the blade itself could supply clues to it's tribal origins.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hi gav,


if your intention is to present that kampilan to pershing's museum, that would be cool. understand tho, that with just that tag backing it up, it will never be 100 percent certain that this was a part of his collection. fortunately, he already have an extensive collection of moro weapons.

Outstanding Ron, well spoken and thank you. It does seem I am and I will be going over a lot of ground you have already covered.
With the passage quoted above Ron, my point exactly. This is why I never wanted the tag that Mr lurker, (fielded by Battara) posted.
So much more can first be done to satisfy origins, decent etc. Relying on a tag to tell me where the sword is from can be counter productive and non conclusive.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

what is certain though, and without a shadow of a doubt, is if you present this to the National Museum in the philippines, or better yet, at the Aga Khan Museum in Mindanao State University (Marawi City, Lanao del sur), the moro people will get to view and understand this fantastic specimen of their ancestor.
regards
ron

A very interesting statement Ron, and well noted. What ever direction is ultimately decided the information and images will be sharded with anyone who wishes to know, hopfully a sound base can be provided for further indepth study by others.

Many thanks

Gav

[Battara]

Being very busy it has been difficult to get back to the forum. That being said he offered the information as another piece of the puzzle to consider. Sometimes later generations will get the information confused from stories told by the veterans. Not too shocking. I think it was nice that the other person tried to give some help to this inquiry.

As far as origins are concerned, I would not be shocked if this were Maranao since this was a favorite of theirs. What does give me some pause are the wonderful tiger bells. I would love to own one with tiger bells. Not too common and a very nice piece. Even the scabbard carving is of good quality. I agree with Ron in that the great value of this is the completeness of the piece. It is rare for these to have scabbards, much less well carved scabbards intact. Then the bells are an added bonus. I don't remember where Camp Vickers was located in relation to Maranao or Maguindanao territory (of the Battle of Pandapatan). Perhaps this would be a good place to start.

Although the blade does not look to be the typical type of blade usually seen in Moro kampilans, this does not preclude it necessarily from being from Mindanao. We are still learning from examples like this one.

I have a fossil molar barong for example. Fossil molar is rare on Moro pieces and only seen on kris. Yet my example has traits of being Samal and is the only one documented (by me). It is the only one in existence so far. I have learned some new things from this piece.

I know that your piece will shed light one some other things regarding this type of piece.

Before you send it off (if you do) would you post pictures of the piece in it's entirety?

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I don't remember where Camp Vickers was located in relation to Maranao or Maguindanao territory (of the Battle of Pandapatan). Perhaps this would be a good place to start.

Well, if you can place Pandapatan then Camp Vickers is one mile south of there.

Originally Posted by Battara

Although the blade does not look to be the typical type of blade usually seen in Moro kampilans, this does not preclude it necessarily from being from Mindanao. We are still learning from examples like this one.

I am confused. I don't see any photos of the blade in this thread, only the blade of Ron's example.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by David

I am confused. I don't see any photos of the blade in this thread, only the blade of Ron's example.

OOPS! Got confused with another thread. Would still like to see pictures of the whole thing.

[Gavin Nugent]

I'll post further images this week, just a little short on time atm.

Thanks

Gav