Moro hilt, a question of region.

Gavin Nugent · 13th November 2009, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Folks, please enlighten me and straighten me out!

Ariel,

Can I suggest a Buddhist retreat and a good Chiropractor

Seriously though...I would not get to put off by old plates, I am certain knowledge has come a long way since 1926 and the most likely explanation as to why that I can think of is there was just not the knowledge base there is today and terms were more generic???

Gav

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2009, 06:21 AM

Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan.
I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article.

There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)?

The few kampilans I have seen, including the one I had, were quite simple overall without extraneous embellishment aside from the carved hilt, and often a simple metal staple on the guard to which a piece of cloth was attached.

I see what Ariel means on the terminology in the 1926 article, and it does look like there must have been some confusion in terms applied. I think one of the most puzzling terms regarding Philippine weapons that I can recall in my brief experience with them was 'bolo'. After the Spanish-American war I think the term was used for every Filipino weapon from swords to small knives by American GI's souvenier troves.

Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status.
I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons.

I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also,
I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes.
i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor.

All best regards,
Jim

Maurice · 13th November 2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

These Tiger bells were found all over Asia, from Pakistan to Siberia to Indonesia.
I think the bell's attached on weapons, should serve as amulets.

Besides amulets, tiger bells were used as musical instruments, animal bells (horse bells and cat bells, dogs bells and yak bells), shamanism, dance bells, amulets on wayang puppets, money.

I got it from this internet source. A lot more written about tiger bells can be found there: http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/bells.htm

Maurice

Spunjer · 13th November 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan.
I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article.

There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle

hi jim,
just a hunch, but the kampilan on the other thread is similar to what cato referred to as a rare type, and i believe not too many of those types have been posted anywhere. the odd handle doesn't necessarily denote timorese, or mindanao, rather it's just another expression of a kampilan hilt.
somewhat similar, but provenanced in mindanao, is this one from cotabato, circa 1899:

Quote:

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

maurice's link is spot on on this...

Quote:

Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)?

some staples do have mailed handguard, although it's not too common.

Quote:

Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status.
I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons.

datu is indeed a broad term, either acquired by birth right, or bestowed upon. basically, datus are leader of a certain clan. some datus were well off, while some were very rich and/or influential, enabling them to have dozens of followers. bestowed upon meaning it could be granted to a deserving person. a good example is pedro cuevas, a tagalog convict who escaped a spanish prison in zamboanga in the 1800's and crossed the basilan. he eventually converted into islam, killed a datu of that island in a duel and later on became known as datu kalun.
weapon embellishment doesn't necessarily translate to their status. his retinue might carry a kris embellished with silver and ivory, but it doesn't mean he "outranks" another datu in his tribe who has a banati pommeled kris.

Quote:

I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also,
I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes.
i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor.

All best regards,
Jim

as i've mentioned on my earlier post, at this point it's difficult to i'd a certain moro kampilan without hard provenance. i wouldn't be surprise if certain features would be indicative of what tribe they belong to, but even then, due to the proximity of the maranao and its subtribes, and the maguidanao, there's bound to have influences between the two. hope this helps...

Battara · 13th November 2009, 11:04 PM

Folks, I just received these pictures from a "lurker" who was going to also bid on this same item. He received these pictures of the original tag (that got lost) before bidding was closed. He offers these as an answer to the question of origin. Thank you to our lurker friend.

Gavin Nugent · 14th November 2009, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Folks, I just received these pictures from a "lurker" who was going to also bid on this same item. He received these pictures of the original tag (that got lost) before bidding was closed. He offers these as an answer to the question of origin. Thank you to our lurker friend.

Thank you Battara. I was aware of the 'presumed provenance' but were not prepared to accept the tag notations until further investigation has taken place once I received the item. There was no reason to cloud efforts to establish the style and form with focus on the stated provenance

Obviously there was intent to bid on it due to these details.
Do you Battara think it is of the Maranao people?
Does Mr lurker care to share any information?
I have been told by many here you are very knowledgeable on the subject Battara and I like all readers would love to hear more thoughts on this piece?

You note the tag as missing? Whilst now having these images printed for all to see it may deter the tag being used on another such example and miss leading history.

I look forward to hearing more from you as you are more learned on the subject.

Gav

David · 14th November 2009, 02:42 AM

I found this information on Wikipedia in regards the the Camp Vickers mentioned on the tag. I saw no mention of a "Battle of Camp Vickers" and it doesn't seem to have been build until 1902. It was indeed under Capt. Pershing's command. There was a 'Battle of Pandapatan" however which apparently was just a mile from where the camp was :
The expeditionary force built Camp Vickers one mile south of Pandapatan, and Davis assigned Pershing to Baldwin's command as an intelligence officer and as director of Moro affairs. As director, Pershing had a veto over Baldwin's movements, which was an unstable arrangement. This arrangement was tested when survivors of Pandapatan began building a cotta at Bacalod. Baldwin wanted to move on the hostile Moros immediately, but Pershing warned that doing so could create an anti-American coalition of the surrounding datus, while some patient diplomacy could establish friendly relations with most of the Moros, isolating the hostile minority. Baldwin grudgingly agreed. On June 30, Pershing assumed command of Camp Vickers, and Baldwin returned to Malabang. A command the size of Camp Vickers would normally have gone to an officer with the rank of Major, and a careful shuffling of personnel would be required to ensure that reinforcements to the Camp did not include officers that were senior to Pershing.
On July 4, 1902, President Theodore Roosevelt issued a proclamation declaring an end to the Philippine Insurrection and a cessation of hostilities in the Philippines "except in the country inhabited by the Moro tribes, to which this proclamation does not apply."[3] Later that month, Davis was promoted and replaced Chaffee as the supreme commander of American forces in the Philippines. Command of the Mindanao-Jolo Department went to Brig. Gen. Samuel S. Sumner. Meanwhile, Pershing settled down to conduct diplomacy with the surrounding Moros, and a July 4th celebration had 700 guests from neighboring rancherias. In September 1902, he lead the Macui Expedition, which resulted in a victory that did much to establish American dominance in the area. On February 10, 1903, Pershing was declared a datu by the formerly hostile Pandita Sajiduciaman of the Bayan Moros (who had been defeated at the Battle of Pandapatan)—the only American to be so honored. Pershing's career at Camp Vickers culminated in the March Around Lake Lanao during April and May 1903. Also known as the Marahui Expedition, it included the Battle of Bacolod and First Battle of Taraca but was otherwise peaceful. This expedition quickly became a symbol of American control of the Lake Lanao region and was regarded as a landmark event by the inhabitants of that region.

Spunjer · 14th November 2009, 05:00 AM

did this tag came with it???
at a glance, it does seem to carry a lot of weight, since the names and places were significant, but it doesn't make any sense. during the moro campaign, there were a lot of moro/american skirmishes, but regarding major battles, there were few. as david mentioned, there was no Battle of camp vickers. if what the tag meant "battle of pandapatan", then yes, it happened. it was the first hostile action between the moros and the american forces. to explain why it doesn't make any sense, one has to look at what really happened.

it was in may, 1902 when seven companies from the 27th Infantry, and with the help from 25th Battery Field Artillery took the battle to the moros. technically the battle was labeled as Battle of Bayan in history books. the americans encountered two kotas or forts in this battle, namely kota binadayan, the smaller one, and kota pandapatan, were the major battle was fought. it was in kota pandapatan, where lieut. thomas vicars (vickers) got killed. as far as who led the battalions; major william scott led the first attack (at binadayan), but then col frank baldwin assumed command at the attack on pandapatan. when these were all happening, capt john pershing was in marawi, miles away from the actual battle. in the end, the sultan of bayan, his heir, the rajah muda, and the sultan of pandapatan were killed.
weeks later, a camp was built not too far from the battle site, and it was named after the lieutenant. it was then when capt. pershing took command of the camp.
going back to the tag, the chronology, characters, etc., are just screwed up somehow:

there were no battles in 1901
battle of camp vickers never happened
john pershing wasn't the commander during the battle

the tag does look old though. is it possible that this was added a few years later, to garner interest to early days collectors? military catalogs such as bannerman, who has been printing catalogs since the 1800's, comes to mind. i'm pretty sure there were collectors back then, who, like there present incarnations, would love to get a piece of a well-provenanced weapon.

just my .02 cents..

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2009, 11:20 PM

Maurice and Spunjer,
Thank you so much guys! for taking the time to post this most helpful information, which really helps as I try to assimilate an understanding of these. I always admire the outstanding command you guys and the others have on these and other fields I have never gone into in much degree, and appreciate the detail.

All the best,
Jim

13th November 2009, 11:04 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Folks, I just received these pictures from a "lurker" who was going to also bid on this same item. He received these pictures of the original tag (that got lost) before bidding was closed. He offers these as an answer to the question of origin. Thank you to our lurker friend. Attached Images

14th November 2009, 05:00 AM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	did this tag came with it??? at a glance, it does seem to carry a lot of weight, since the names and places were significant, but it doesn't make any sense. during the moro campaign, there were a lot of moro/american skirmishes, but regarding major battles, there were few. as david mentioned, there was no Battle of camp vickers. if what the tag meant "battle of pandapatan", then yes, it happened. it was the first hostile action between the moros and the american forces. to explain why it doesn't make any sense, one has to look at what really happened. it was in may, 1902 when seven companies from the 27th Infantry, and with the help from 25th Battery Field Artillery took the battle to the moros. technically the battle was labeled as Battle of Bayan in history books. the americans encountered two kotas or forts in this battle, namely kota binadayan, the smaller one, and kota pandapatan, were the major battle was fought. it was in kota pandapatan, where lieut. thomas vicars (vickers) got killed. as far as who led the battalions; major william scott led the first attack (at binadayan), but then col frank baldwin assumed command at the attack on pandapatan. when these were all happening, capt john pershing was in marawi, miles away from the actual battle. in the end, the sultan of bayan, his heir, the rajah muda, and the sultan of pandapatan were killed. weeks later, a camp was built not too far from the battle site, and it was named after the lieutenant. it was then when capt. pershing took command of the camp. going back to the tag, the chronology, characters, etc., are just screwed up somehow: there were no battles in 1901 battle of camp vickers never happened john pershing wasn't the commander during the battle the tag does look old though. is it possible that this was added a few years later, to garner interest to early days collectors? military catalogs such as bannerman, who has been printing catalogs since the 1800's, comes to mind. i'm pretty sure there were collectors back then, who, like there present incarnations, would love to get a piece of a well-provenanced weapon. just my .02 cents..

13th November 2009, 06:21 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan. I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article. There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'? I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific? Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)? The few kampilans I have seen, including the one I had, were quite simple overall without extraneous embellishment aside from the carved hilt, and often a simple metal staple on the guard to which a piece of cloth was attached. I see what Ariel means on the terminology in the 1926 article, and it does look like there must have been some confusion in terms applied. I think one of the most puzzling terms regarding Philippine weapons that I can recall in my brief experience with them was 'bolo'. After the Spanish-American war I think the term was used for every Filipino weapon from swords to small knives by American GI's souvenier troves. Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status. I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons. I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also, I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes. i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor. All best regards, Jim

14th November 2009, 02:42 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I found this information on Wikipedia in regards the the Camp Vickers mentioned on the tag. I saw no mention of a "Battle of Camp Vickers" and it doesn't seem to have been build until 1902. It was indeed under Capt. Pershing's command. There was a 'Battle of Pandapatan" however which apparently was just a mile from where the camp was : The expeditionary force built Camp Vickers one mile south of Pandapatan, and Davis assigned Pershing to Baldwin's command as an intelligence officer and as director of Moro affairs. As director, Pershing had a veto over Baldwin's movements, which was an unstable arrangement. This arrangement was tested when survivors of Pandapatan began building a cotta at Bacalod. Baldwin wanted to move on the hostile Moros immediately, but Pershing warned that doing so could create an anti-American coalition of the surrounding datus, while some patient diplomacy could establish friendly relations with most of the Moros, isolating the hostile minority. Baldwin grudgingly agreed. On June 30, Pershing assumed command of Camp Vickers, and Baldwin returned to Malabang. A command the size of Camp Vickers would normally have gone to an officer with the rank of Major, and a careful shuffling of personnel would be required to ensure that reinforcements to the Camp did not include officers that were senior to Pershing. On July 4, 1902, President Theodore Roosevelt issued a proclamation declaring an end to the Philippine Insurrection and a cessation of hostilities in the Philippines "except in the country inhabited by the Moro tribes, to which this proclamation does not apply."[3] Later that month, Davis was promoted and replaced Chaffee as the supreme commander of American forces in the Philippines. Command of the Mindanao-Jolo Department went to Brig. Gen. Samuel S. Sumner. Meanwhile, Pershing settled down to conduct diplomacy with the surrounding Moros, and a July 4th celebration had 700 guests from neighboring rancherias. In September 1902, he lead the Macui Expedition, which resulted in a victory that did much to establish American dominance in the area. On February 10, 1903, Pershing was declared a datu by the formerly hostile Pandita Sajiduciaman of the Bayan Moros (who had been defeated at the Battle of Pandapatan)—the only American to be so honored. Pershing's career at Camp Vickers culminated in the March Around Lake Lanao during April and May 1903. Also known as the Marahui Expedition, it included the Battle of Bacolod and First Battle of Taraca but was otherwise peaceful. This expedition quickly became a symbol of American control of the Lake Lanao region and was regarded as a landmark event by the inhabitants of that region.

13th November 2009, 11:20 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Maurice and Spunjer, Thank you so much guys! for taking the time to post this most helpful information, which really helps as I try to assimilate an understanding of these. I always admire the outstanding command you guys and the others have on these and other fields I have never gone into in much degree, and appreciate the detail. All the best, Jim