RAKSASA & Buta Bajang Figure Hilts - Page 2

erikscollectables · 17th May 2009, 11:34 AM

How old are these figural hilts?
The four I started this thread with all seem to be very old.
Most of the ones I have seen so far seem quite old and often quite worn.
The 4 I have I think (without any supporting proof) are 19th century or older.
Is there any dating possible on any of these?
Jensen works with data from old collections so he has sustainable proof.
With our items it is more difficult but are there hints to date the hilts approximately?

Regards, Erik

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 12:19 PM

I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik.

There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on.

I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago.

The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing.

But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things.

Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.

ganjawulung · 4th July 2009, 03:13 AM

Dear All,

Again, this was just an intermezzo. Just call it a weekender keris sight-seeing. Just want to share with you, pictures of what many of you call such hilts as -- raksasa hilts. Or, "buta bajang" hilts, whatever. Really I don't have the "pakem" book yet on such hilts.

I would like to thank you too, if you wish to share too, your pictures on such hilts. I believe, there are still more such hilts all around here...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 4th July 2009, 03:15 AM

Here are close ups on one of them...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 4th July 2009, 03:19 AM

Some of them are not like "buta" or "raksasa", but like figures of Javanese wayang...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 4th July 2009, 05:21 AM

Nice handles Pak G.

You're right, it is a pity we do not have any guide book relating to this form of hilt.

I've posted some rough pics of a few of mine, but really, I don't know if they strictly fit the parameters or not --- but I'm certain that they fit the "whatever" classification.

ganjawulung · 4th July 2009, 12:26 PM

Thanks a lot, Alan for sharing your fantastic "butas"... Is there any thing to tell on some of their 'gesture'. Any 'speculation' idea on the "mudra", the special gesture of their hands and fingers maybe?

GANJAWULUNG

VVV · 4th July 2009, 01:28 PM

My favourite kind of keris hilt!
In the late Karsten Sejr-Jensen´s book and CD there is an analysis of the mudra signs etc.

Here are some of mine.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 4th July 2009, 02:41 PM

Sorry Pak Ganja, this is an area that I know virtually nothing about.

Supposedly many of these figures are found in the pralambapada mudra, but my knowledge is insufficient for me to confirm this, or to speculate upon the reason, if indeed they are.

It has been suggested to me by a Chinese academic who teaches in this area of knowledge that perhaps these mudras are not so accurately portrayed and that to truly interpret them might be more than a little difficult.

These hilts are probably very fertile ground for some serious research.

harimauhk · 4th July 2009, 02:51 PM

Nice hilts. I too don't know much about them, but having grown up around Hinduism (I'm Indian and Nepalese), I find Indonesian representations of figures from Hindu mythology fascinating. Just out of curiosity, does 'buta' mean ghost?

ganjawulung · 5th July 2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harimauhk

Nice hilts. I too don't know much about them, but having grown up around Hinduism (I'm Indian and Nepalese), I find Indonesian representations of figures from Hindu mythology fascinating. Just out of curiosity, does 'buta' mean ghost?

Not 'ghost', but 'giant'. In some (javanese) wayang stories, giants were not always gigantic in size. Only the form (appearance) is 'giant' like, but the size of the creature is told as -- sometimes even smaller than human being. "Buta Bajang" means "Dwarf giant"... Literally "buta" (javanese) means "giant". Unfortunately, in Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) "buta" means "blind"..

GANJAWULUNG

harimauhk · 5th July 2009, 12:27 PM

Ma kasih ganja, in Hindi, "bhut" means ghost, which is why I was curious.

David · 5th July 2009, 05:01 PM

Great thread, though i would like to point out that we had a very similar thread on these figurative hilts this past spring. It might not be a bad idea to merge the 2 threads just to have all this info in one place, but for now i will just provide a link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=raksasa

erikscollectables · 5th July 2009, 07:52 PM

Yes my most favorite type as well.

The discussion last time (as mentioned by David) with good input from Alan was very interesting.
Also the krisdisk mentioned by Michael and of course the text by Martin Kerner on this theme is quite interesting (for those that read german..)

Erik

Battara · 5th July 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I would like to thank you too, if you wish to share too, your pictures on such hilts. I believe, there are still more such hilts all around here...

Well this is the only rakshasha hilt I have - ivory, gold, and Balinese:

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2009, 12:48 AM

Good idea David.

I'd forgotten that we'd been down this road before, if I'd remembered I would not have started walking along it again.

ganjawulung · 8th July 2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

My favourite kind of keris hilt!
In the late Karsten Sejr-Jensen´s book and CD there is an analysis of the mudra signs etc.

Here are some of mine.

Michael

Thanks, Michael, for showing "your avatar" in complete view.. Thanks a lot too, to Erik and David. These are more pictorial post of such hilts...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 8th July 2009, 04:39 PM

And more poses of this old model...

GANJAWULUNG

erikscollectables · 8th July 2009, 05:45 PM

Really great examples Ganjawulung!
Thanks for sharing!

I am always searching for these but really good ones are harder and harder to find...(at least here in Holland)

Erik

David · 8th July 2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

And more poses of this old model...

Nicely carved fellow, but he doesn't look particularly old...

ganjawulung · 8th July 2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nicely carved fellow, but he doesn't look particularly old...

Old ones, David. But unfortunately, it was my fault to clean it too clean. It happened long time ago. So it (they) had lost the patina. Originaly they were so dirty and heavy patinated. I cleaned it with tooth-brush and detergent. And after it became so pale, then I put coconot oil.... But I will never do such silly thing again. Really, it is not new ones...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 8th July 2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Really great examples Ganjawulung!
Thanks for sharing!

I am always searching for these but really good ones are harder and harder to find...(at least here in Holland)

Erik

Difficult too to find in Jawa. All are gone somewhere in the world... I have couple in the past, but that was my fault. I cleaned the patinated hilts with tooth brush and soap. Never do like this, Erik...

GANJAWULUNG

Royston · 8th July 2009, 07:59 PM

These are my ones

Roy

Sajen · 8th July 2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Old ones, David. But unfortunately, it was my fault to clean it too clean. It happened long time ago. So it (they) had lost the patina. Originaly they were so dirty and heavy patinated. I cleaned it with tooth-brush and detergent. And after it became so pale, then I put coconot oil.... But I will never do such silly thing again. Really, it is not new ones...

GANJAWULUNG

I don't know if this is have been a mistake, the fine carvings sometimes not to see when the handle have to much patination. Some of my handles I have cleaned also.

sajen

Sajen · 8th July 2009, 10:53 PM

Some of my wooden handles I have shown in the other threat before.
Here three handles in ivory. Please apologize the bad quality of the photos, it have been a fast snapshot.

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2009, 02:41 AM

Yeah, soap and water sounds a bit drastic.

I use a tooth brush and baby oil to clean really dirty hilts, and really, any other sort of carvings too.

The oil tends to soak into the gunk and soften it, and after you've revisited the carving a few times you'll normally have all the muck removed.

ganjawulung · 9th July 2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I use a tooth brush and baby oil to clean really dirty hilts, and really, any other sort of carvings too.

The oil tends to soak into the gunk and soften it, and after you've revisited the carving a few times you'll normally have all the muck removed.

Yes Alan, now I clean with very very soft tooth-brush only, and then soft clothes...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 9th July 2009, 07:03 AM

Dear Roy and Sajen,

Thanks for the sharing. And here are more on variations of the 'giant' creatures. A hilt of horn below. More looks like wayang figures...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 9th July 2009, 07:09 AM

And this is probably the wayang hilt. Hopefully, to be older than Cirebon era. Or Pajajaran?

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 9th July 2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

And this is probably the wayang hilt. Hopefully, to be older than Cirebon era. Or Pajajaran?

GANJAWULUNG

This hilt is similar to two I have shown in the other threat before. But I don't know how old this hilts. Here again the pictures.

sajen

17th May 2009, 11:34 AM	#31
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Age? How old are these figural hilts? The four I started this thread with all seem to be very old. Most of the ones I have seen so far seem quite old and often quite worn. The 4 I have I think (without any supporting proof) are 19th century or older. Is there any dating possible on any of these? Jensen works with data from old collections so he has sustainable proof. With our items it is more difficult but are there hints to date the hilts approximately? Regards, Erik

4th July 2009, 03:13 AM	#33
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	RAKSASA & Buta Bajang Figure Hilts Dear All, Again, this was just an intermezzo. Just call it a weekender keris sight-seeing. Just want to share with you, pictures of what many of you call such hilts as -- raksasa hilts. Or, "buta bajang" hilts, whatever. Really I don't have the "pakem" book yet on such hilts. I would like to thank you too, if you wish to share too, your pictures on such hilts. I believe, there are still more such hilts all around here... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

4th July 2009, 03:15 AM	#34
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	CLOSE ups of one of them Here are close ups on one of them... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

4th July 2009, 03:19 AM	#35
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	MORE Close ups on other hilts Some of them are not like "buta" or "raksasa", but like figures of Javanese wayang... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

4th July 2009, 05:21 AM	#36
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Nice handles Pak G. You're right, it is a pity we do not have any guide book relating to this form of hilt. I've posted some rough pics of a few of mine, but really, I don't know if they strictly fit the parameters or not --- but I'm certain that they fit the "whatever" classification. Attached Images

17th May 2009, 12:19 PM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik. There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on. I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago. The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing. But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things. Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.

4th July 2009, 12:26 PM	#37
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	MUDRA? Thanks a lot, Alan for sharing your fantastic "butas"... Is there any thing to tell on some of their 'gesture'. Any 'speculation' idea on the "mudra", the special gesture of their hands and fingers maybe? GANJAWULUNG

4th July 2009, 01:28 PM	#38
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	My favourite kind of keris hilt! In the late Karsten Sejr-Jensen´s book and CD there is an analysis of the mudra signs etc. Here are some of mine. Michael Attached Images

4th July 2009, 02:41 PM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Sorry Pak Ganja, this is an area that I know virtually nothing about. Supposedly many of these figures are found in the pralambapada mudra, but my knowledge is insufficient for me to confirm this, or to speculate upon the reason, if indeed they are. It has been suggested to me by a Chinese academic who teaches in this area of knowledge that perhaps these mudras are not so accurately portrayed and that to truly interpret them might be more than a little difficult. These hilts are probably very fertile ground for some serious research.

4th July 2009, 02:51 PM	#40
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	Nice hilts. I too don't know much about them, but having grown up around Hinduism (I'm Indian and Nepalese), I find Indonesian representations of figures from Hindu mythology fascinating. Just out of curiosity, does 'buta' mean ghost?

5th July 2009, 12:27 PM	#42
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	Ma kasih ganja, in Hindi, "bhut" means ghost, which is why I was curious.

5th July 2009, 05:01 PM	#43
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Great thread, though i would like to point out that we had a very similar thread on these figurative hilts this past spring. It might not be a bad idea to merge the 2 threads just to have all this info in one place, but for now i will just provide a link. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=raksasa

5th July 2009, 07:52 PM	#44
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	favorites Yes my most favorite type as well. The discussion last time (as mentioned by David) with good input from Alan was very interesting. Also the krisdisk mentioned by Michael and of course the text by Martin Kerner on this theme is quite interesting (for those that read german..) Erik Attached Images

6th July 2009, 12:48 AM	#46
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Good idea David. I'd forgotten that we'd been down this road before, if I'd remembered I would not have started walking along it again.

8th July 2009, 04:39 PM	#48
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	And more poses of this old model... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

8th July 2009, 05:45 PM	#49
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Really great examples Ganjawulung! Thanks for sharing! I am always searching for these but really good ones are harder and harder to find...(at least here in Holland) Erik

8th July 2009, 07:59 PM	#53
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	A couple more These are my ones Roy Attached Images

8th July 2009, 10:53 PM	#55
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Some of my wooden handles I have shown in the other threat before. Here three handles in ivory. Please apologize the bad quality of the photos, it have been a fast snapshot. sajen Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 8th July 2009 at 11:37 PM.

9th July 2009, 02:41 AM	#56
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, soap and water sounds a bit drastic. I use a tooth brush and baby oil to clean really dirty hilts, and really, any other sort of carvings too. The oil tends to soak into the gunk and soften it, and after you've revisited the carving a few times you'll normally have all the muck removed.

9th July 2009, 07:03 AM	#58
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear Roy and Sajen, Thanks for the sharing. And here are more on variations of the 'giant' creatures. A hilt of horn below. More looks like wayang figures... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

9th July 2009, 07:09 AM	#59
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	WAYANG hilt And this is probably the wayang hilt. Hopefully, to be older than Cirebon era. Or Pajajaran? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images