Rare Pilipino Swords....

Ian · 30th April 2005, 07:15 PM

Tom:

I added some further pictures which do seem to show a laminated blade, as you suggested, and more detail of the hardened edge from each side. Does the prominent white line demarcating the hardened edge reflect a transition zone as a result of the tempering process?

Ian.

Rick · 30th April 2005, 08:58 PM

Hi Tom the central core ( I believe it goes all the way through) on the kris sundang is a very heavy jellyroll twist ; that area is also a wide shallow fuller , there is also a narrow deeper fuller on one edge .

The Bonifacio (if I may) seems to me to be cheeks of different steel laminated on a possibly iron core ; that blade has had a thorough etch ; only problem is if it is tripartate construction the lines of demarcation are not readily apparant on the spine .

The last picture is of the Baiwan sword tip ; I believe this may well be the same construction method as the bolo .

A better look at the bolo edge .

And below it what I believe to be an inlaid panel over the core of a very old kris , akin to pamor .

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 10:33 PM

Yes, akin to pamor is a pretty good description of the usual kris sundang construction. What makes you think the one is panel-welded? I take it the core tracks the same way on both sides? An inlaid edge on a single edged blade that runs all thne way thru to the spine would be odd; more usually it is pinched into the edge of the blade.

Rick · 30th April 2005, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Yes, akin to pamor is a pretty good description of the usual kris sundang construction. What makes you think the one is panel-welded? I take it the core tracks the same way on both sides? An inlaid edge on a single edged blade that runs all thne way thru to the spine would be odd; more usually it is pinched into the edge of the blade.

Now I'm getting confused Tom, which kris are you speaking of here ?
The first kris sundang picture I posted I'm pretty sure that the core is spiral jellyroll pattern if you will all the way through and the laminated edge was forge welded on .
The second older kris with the leaf like central pattern I believe to be applied to both sides of the sword in a fairly thin layer over the blade as you can see it fade out toward the point unlike the other sundang blade .

Am I making any sense ?

Spunjer · 1st May 2005, 12:35 AM

...and i thank you, tom, for your time.

(psst, your message box is full

)

Ian · 1st May 2005, 01:32 AM

Dragged out this old one and etched it this afternoon to find evidence of lamination of the blade and a hardened edge similar to the binangon I showed above.

We know this one is old because it has an older style Visayan scabbard, a wooden disk guard that is asymmetrical, and the blade just looks "old." The beveled edge has been ground many times and shows clear lamination.

tom hyle · 1st May 2005, 01:34 AM

I thank you, spunjer, for the pictures of a very nice looking old sword

Rick, rather than try to further diagnose from a distance why don't you send me your swords? Just joking

Rather than try to further diagnose from a distance, I'll tell you a thing to look for. Look at the spine of the blade on the dog head sword, within the clip, at the very tip. If the surface is clean and etched well, and the hard steel goes all the way to the tip, you should either see the edge bit pinched in, or the hard part will end in a line that runs across the spine, perpendicular to the length of the sword (usually slanty, but only very slightly; nothing one would mistake for a scarf weld).
Even in person, there is often no real visual cue to decide between a weld and a hardening line; logic concerning the shape of the line and its relation to any welded grain there may be are largely our tools. There is often a different look to a weld than a hardening line, but one cannot always rely on that in my experiece.

Spunjer · 1st May 2005, 07:16 PM

ian,
is that a bathead? better yet, and if you don't mind, can you post a "mugshot" of that baby?

30th April 2005, 08:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Hi Tom the central core ( I believe it goes all the way through) on the kris sundang is a very heavy jellyroll twist ; that area is also a wide shallow fuller , there is also a narrow deeper fuller on one edge . The Bonifacio (if I may) seems to me to be cheeks of different steel laminated on a possibly iron core ; that blade has had a thorough etch ; only problem is if it is tripartate construction the lines of demarcation are not readily apparant on the spine . The last picture is of the Baiwan sword tip ; I believe this may well be the same construction method as the bolo . A better look at the bolo edge . And below it what I believe to be an inlaid panel over the core of a very old kris , akin to pamor . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 30th April 2005 at 09:14 PM.

1st May 2005, 01:32 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,523	Laminated Visayan Blade + Hardened Edge Dragged out this old one and etched it this afternoon to find evidence of lamination of the blade and a hardened edge similar to the binangon I showed above. We know this one is old because it has an older style Visayan scabbard, a wooden disk guard that is asymmetrical, and the blade just looks "old." The beveled edge has been ground many times and shows clear lamination. Attached Images

1st May 2005, 01:34 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I thank you, spunjer, for the pictures of a very nice looking old sword Rick, rather than try to further diagnose from a distance why don't you send me your swords? Just joking Rather than try to further diagnose from a distance, I'll tell you a thing to look for. Look at the spine of the blade on the dog head sword, within the clip, at the very tip. If the surface is clean and etched well, and the hard steel goes all the way to the tip, you should either see the edge bit pinched in, or the hard part will end in a line that runs across the spine, perpendicular to the length of the sword (usually slanty, but only very slightly; nothing one would mistake for a scarf weld). Even in person, there is often no real visual cue to decide between a weld and a hardening line; logic concerning the shape of the line and its relation to any welded grain there may be are largely our tools. There is often a different look to a weld than a hardening line, but one cannot always rely on that in my experiece. Last edited by tom hyle; 1st May 2005 at 01:20 PM.

30th April 2005, 07:15 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,523	Tom: I added some further pictures which do seem to show a laminated blade, as you suggested, and more detail of the hardened edge from each side. Does the prominent white line demarcating the hardened edge reflect a transition zone as a result of the tempering process? Ian.

30th April 2005, 10:33 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, akin to pamor is a pretty good description of the usual kris sundang construction. What makes you think the one is panel-welded? I take it the core tracks the same way on both sides? An inlaid edge on a single edged blade that runs all thne way thru to the spine would be odd; more usually it is pinched into the edge of the blade.

1st May 2005, 12:35 AM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	...and i thank you, tom, for your time. (psst, your message box is full )

1st May 2005, 07:16 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	ian, is that a bathead? better yet, and if you don't mind, can you post a "mugshot" of that baby?