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Author	Topic: Mandaya Sword ?
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 07-28-2001 12:46 I'm looking for a picture or illustration. Anyone have one? IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 07-28-2001 13:29 MANDAYA KNIFE STONES GLOSSARY PG. 436 FIG.553 THAT IS THE ONLY THING I KNOW OF I DON'T KNOW ABOUT A SWORD OF THAT NAME, BUT PERHAPS THE TRIBE ALSO HAD A SWORD. THERE WAS ONE OF THE DAGGERS CLOSED ON EBAY YESTERDAY BUT I WAS OFF DOING SOMETHING AND MISSED IT. I USED TO JUST BID ON EVERYTHING I FOUND BUT SEVERAL DEALERS STARTED USEING MY BIDS AS A SEARCH ENGINE AND BID SNIPEING ME ON EVERYTHING AT THE LAST MINUTE AND THEN PUTTING IT BACK ON EBAY AT CHRISTIES AND SOUTHBYS PRICES WHICH I CAN'T AFFORD. AS I CAN'T LIVE BY THE COMPUTER ALWAYS, I MISS OUT ON A LOT OF ITEMS.I GUESS I NEED THE SNIPER SOFTWARE BUT DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GET IT. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 07-28-2001 15:46 I ask because I seem to remember reading that the Mandaya had a sword and the only description offered was that it was curved. I'm pretty sure it was in the Nov. 1913 Geographic. I learned from the picture of a Mandaya warrior in that article that I had in my possesion two Mandaya spears (I had thought them to be Moro). The hafts are not shown. image restored from archive The warrior in the Geographic image was not wearing a sword that I could see. My curiousity has been piqued. [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 03-24-2002).] IP: Logged
zelbone Senior Member	posted 07-28-2001 18:48 Rick, The Mandaya live in eastern Mindanao in the mountain range that separates Davao Gulf from the Pacific Ocean. As far as swords go, I haven't seen any particular sword or bolo that is peculiarly Mandaya. It would almost be safe to say that they would be very similar to the swords of the other inland and highland tribes of Mindanao...think Bagoboo, T'boli, Tagakaolo,or Bukidnon. I have several of their tapestry weavings that are similar to the other tribes so I'm assuming that their weapons among other things would be similar. I do know that their knives have an interesting hilt with a three-pronged pommel. As for your spear heads, those do look like the Mandaya spear heads. In the book From the Rainbow's Varied Hue: Textiles of the Southern Philippines ,Roy Hamilton,ed., there's a photo of two Mandaya warriors holding spears and shields with good views of their spear heads...just like yours. None are wearing swords, but one of the warriors has a dagger like I mentioned tucked in his waistband. Actually, this book is a good wealth of information on non-Moro tribes with great photos of their native costumes and weapons. In fact there is a great photo of a Bukidnon warrior holding a spear and shield, but the interesting bit is the sword tucked in his waist sash. The blade is in its scabbard so it's not visible, but from what I can make out is the handle which is quite interesting. It appears to have a brass ferrule with a brass oval crossguard...similar to a Bagobo sword. However, the pommel has long hairs (goat?horse?...human?!?!) extending out at the end of the pommel, like how some kampilans have hairs at the lower jaw. I'd be interested in actually seeing a genuine Mandaya sword as well. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 07-28-2001 23:13 Hi Zel, the hafts for those spears are about 7' long. Each one has a conical iron butt cap and a few decorative metal bands near where the socket joins the haft. I believe that the hafts are made of Palm wood. The spear heads are made from damasked steel; the sockets from monosteel. I have a hard time believing that this tribe did not carry some kind of sword. IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 07-28-2001 23:35 So far I haven't been able to get hold of any Mandaya pieces for my collection, the majority of my things being Igoro (a fal-feg, a kayan and a hinalung/fangkao spears,and a head axe, as well as several nice Moro pieces (still working on learning the tribal levels and diferentiation), but will keep an eye peeled for any good info, especially pictures or items. Vandoo if it's any help, that long knife that closed yesterday, if it's the one I'm thinking of (out of England, sold for $39?)it's N. African, just very similar in style to the Mandaya.....I missed it BOTH times, if that's any consolation. IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 07-29-2001 01:33 THE ITEM #1448884273 WAS THE DAGGER I WAS REFERRING TO, THE PICTURE IS STILL THERE TODAY IT WAS IN CALIFORNIA AND SOLD FOR $120.00 I THINK SOMEONE GOT A GOOD DEAL, I WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO GET ONE FOR THAT PRICE. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 07-29-2001 19:40 Time to fess up. Yes, I'm very happy. I was the only other bidder. Now my spears have company. IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 07-29-2001 22:42 CONGRATULATIONS I AM GLAD IT WENT TO SOMEONE WHO CAN APPRECIATE IT AND HAS WEAPONS FROM THE SAME TRIBE (ENJOY!). 3 ITEMS = A COLLECTION, SO NOW ALL YOU NEED IS THE ELUSIVE SWORD AND PERHAPS A SHIELD. THEN YOU CAN BE THE EXPERT ON THAT TRIBES WEAPONS. I HAVE A SPEAR THAT HAS A 9 FOOT SHAFT AND A VERY LARGE WATERED STEEL BLADE I WILL HAVE TO DIG IT OUT AND SEE IF I CAN GET A IDENTIFICATION ON IT .I WONDER HOW THOSE LITTLE GUYS USED THOSE GREAT BIG SPEARS? IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 07-29-2001 23:13 My apologies...wrong item, and congratulations it is SWEET, and the first good pic I've ever seen. The one I was referring to was a Somali short sword with the three spiked pommel (there's one currently on Oriental-Arms I've been drooling over)...again Rick, nice coup and congratulations. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 07-30-2001 09:39 Well, I didn't see any of you guys bidding so I did. This is often a dilemma for me as moderator. Sometimes I wish to acquire a piece and I've got to decide whether to bid against one or more of our members here in the forum for it. My apologies to any member that I may have offended by my actions. Vandoo, I'm not sure that simply having these pieces will make me an expert. Anyway now you all know my user name. I'll post some good pictures here when I receive it. Rick [This message has been edited by Rick (edited 07-30-2001).] IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 07-30-2001 17:08 Let your conscience rest at ease, you are a collector first and a moderator second, I was bidding against several of the members in the early days of ebay and we emailed each other congratulations, questions and information when we lost.I knew several of them by ebay name before I ever found the forum. I am pleased to see anybody get a nice weapon for their collection as I understand the pleasure of getting a item you want, especially for a good price.It kind of takes the sting out of losing ,when you know it is in someone's collection instead of in some gallery as a investment tool. besides seeing as how you got it we will all have the opportunity to see pictures and learn about it. So jump in and bid I won't hold it against you and I don't think anyone else will among the group and if its the one thing we can't live without you might get a real good trade someday. [This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 07-30-2001).] IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 08-01-2001 15:25 Posted for Battara: Mandaya Dagger image restored from archive image restored from archive [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 03-24-2002).] IP: Logged
Jimmer Senior Member	posted 08-01-2001 18:59 Oooo...I didn't see the scabbard....That would have changed things. LOL. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 08-01-2001 19:15 No, no, no, not mine. Posted for Battara, IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 08-01-2001 19:15 Completely awesome....excellent piece, from all angles...again, congratualtions. One of the drawbacks to many of the bladed weapons book is that you're usually dealing with line drawings, or at best, poor b/w photos...pictures like this atr worth their weight in gold to me...thanks for sharing. IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 08-01-2001 21:05 NOW THAT IS A BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF WORK, I WONDER IF THAT TRIBE STILL MAKES THAT KNIFE WITH THAT QUALITY TODAY? NOW I REALLY WANT ONE! THE BLADE LOOKS THICK IN THE CENTER IS IT A DIAMOND SHAPE, DOUBLE EDGED THRUSTING WEAPON? THANKS FOR SHARING THE PICTURE THAT'S THE FIRST GOOD LOOK I HAVE GOT OF ONE. I HOPE RICK'S IS AS WELL MADE AS THAT ONE. IP: Logged
Battara Senior Member	posted 08-02-2001 18:23 Thank you Rick for posting my piece. Yes Vandoo, this has a diamond shaped cross section, double edged (and SHARP!). There is a sublte pattern in the blade after I etched it that does not show up as well in pics. It has a museum accession number on the back (which is brown bannana leaf) in black that I found after I purchased it. I did replace one small silver band on one of the arms. Everything else is original. Conogre, I agree, most of the research that I have is in black and white, done at the turn of the century, in books on Filipino ethnology by Americans. Although this is invaluable, it would be nice to have an more recent texts with color pictures. That is why I am so thankful for this forum where I can actually see better color pics of what I should be looking for. Of course, that means that I have to wipe up more drool off my keyboard. I will try to post more of my pieces as I get them digitally photographed. [This message has been edited by Battara (edited 08-03-2001).] IP: Logged
Battara Senior Member	posted 08-04-2001 16:32 Something I forgot to ask: does anyone need references to articles with photos of mandaya knives (b/w of course)? IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 08-06-2001 15:36 Well, here's the piece. I can't say as I am overwhelmed with joy....the wrap at the waist of the hilt looks redone. Anyway....Caveat Emptor image restored from archive image restored from archive image restored from archive [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 03-24-2002).] IP: Logged
Battara Senior Member	posted 08-06-2001 16:00 If it is rewrapped, it would be the middle between the top and bottom bands of wrap. I'll double check my information. Still a nice piece. I've seen some with out any silver whatsoever and the blade looks like it is in good condition along with the wood. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 08-06-2001 16:07 Yep! That's where I'm suspicious about. Any ideas about the single woven band on one horn? IP: Logged
VANDOO Senior Member	posted 08-06-2001 18:25 THE PIECE MAY BE REWRAPPED BUT FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO IT WAS VERY WELL DONE AND MOST LIKELY DONE BY SOMEONE IN THE PHILIPPINES WHO KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.AS TO THE ONE WRAP ON ONE HORN, IT IS MORE LIKELY THAT THE OTHER ONE WAS LOST, THAN THE JOB WASN'T FINISHED. DOES IT SHOW ANY WEAR? IS THE METAL WRAP SILVER OR ALUMINUM. FROM WHAT I CAN TELL THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A GOOD ONE, WHAT IS THE DECORATION ON THE TANG WHERE IT EXTENDS ABOVE THE HANDLE, IS IT WRAPPED OR IS THE METAL KNURLED? THE HANDLE LOOKS GOOD NO CHIPS OR DAMAGE. IT IS A NICE EXAMPLE OF A HARD TO COME BY KNIFE AND A GOOD ADDITION TO YOUR COLLECTION. OF COURSE AFTER SEEING THAT PICTURE OF THAT OTHER SHOW STOPPER WE ALL WANT ONE LIKE THAT [This message has been edited by VANDOO (edited 08-06-2001).] IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 08-06-2001 18:50 Following the last two posts...ditto, ditto and ditto. While original wrapping is desired, the tropical climate eats it up, and many were rewrapped over and over depending upon the age of the piece.....I've got more than one piece I'd happily pay to have rewrapped by a Philippino adept in the art (I tried and gave up in dispair) I personally am still envious. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 08-06-2001 19:34 Okay, to answer questions that have been asked. The bands are Silver and of a thin guage. The blade shows faint patterns associated with laminar construction, and is robust. The Tang is wrapped with an extremely fine Rattan-like material (could even be Rattan except that it is so dark in color). The hilt seems tiny in my hand,and I have small hands; I haven't figured out quite how to grip it. The re-wrap is well done.....provided that it is not a synthetic cord that has been used. I'm certainly not disappointed with the purchase; I got my $'s worth. IP: Logged
Rick EEWRS Staff	posted 08-07-2001 18:29 More pictures from Battara; more Daggers, and perhaps the elusive sword! image restored from archive image restored from archive The Swords image restored from archive image restored from archive [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 03-24-2002).] IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 08-08-2001 08:55 I just hit these pics and came to a screaching halt.....to say they are both beautiful pieces goes without question, but does anyone else have any further information on the sword? I sent pics to Artzi about a year ago of a curious bolo I had picked up as it has a crook in the middle, a small kukhri like projection and tapers to a very thin, but sturdy "waist"....in short, the blade on this sword, only ending in the traditional bolo/chopper end. I have to also say that I fell in love with it immediately, as the above listed features combine to give it a balance and sheer chopping cut power far in excess of the average bolo or machete I've ever felt.....is this blade construction typical to this tribe, or is this too a unique example or an abberation? 1) the blade length is 16", finished identically on both sides, and with a very strong "grain" in the steel, 2) no, it's not double edged, although the backside is so thin it almost could be (all the thickness is in the medial ridge), while the cutting edge is RAZOR sharp, 3)and as far as having been re-hilted, it would have had to been 50 years ago or more, due to patina of the wood, age cracks and the way it is mounted in the handle, while the crudeness of carving on the wierd "phallic" handle does seem to conflict with the quality of the blade. image restored from archive image restored from archive image restored from archive [This message has been edited by Rick (edited 08-08-2001).] [This message has been edited by Conogre (edited 08-08-2001).] [This message has been edited by Lee Jones (edited 03-24-2002).] IP: Logged
Battara Senior Member	posted 08-08-2001 11:55 According to Cole in his book "The Wild Tribes of Davao District Mindanao" (Chicago:1913), the daggers and bolo swords pictured are from the Mandaya tribe. These pics which Rick graciously posted for me are scanned from that book. Here then are the only pics of Mandaya swords that have any researched affiliation. Conogre, I can see your point that the piece that you have has a blade that resembles the aforementioned swords. I think it is possible that it is a Mandaya sword also. The only thing that throughs me off a little is the hilt, but this may be a later period piece and for a lower rank individual. I have seen similar pieces like yours sold in Frederick's Swords catalogs in the past, with simple hilts (but attributed to be Moro). The pieces in the photos are more likely for higher ranking individuals, especially with all of the silver involved. The clip point on the blade also puts a little question into the puzzle, but I have seen that time has progressed, some blades and hilts have evolved (or devolved) and the case could possibly be made on your bolo and it could be of more recent origin. If I find anymore info that can help with the identification of your piece, I'll let you know. By the way, notice that on one of the Mandaya daggers there are bands of silver on the spike, which I believe were also at one time present on Rick's piece. On the other Mandaya dagger, there is a silver band that is lined by 2 bands of braided rattan. I believe this was also originally on Rick's piece as well. The one band of braid below the silver band on the crescent arm: may have been 2 originally above and below each band on the arms (especially note the lighter areas of wood without patina next to each silver band except where the braided rattan is). I hope this helps. [This message has been edited by Battara (edited 08-08-2001).] IP: Logged
Conogre Senior Member	posted 08-08-2001 15:03 Thank you VERY much Battara for your help and input.....one further observation inspired by Rick's questions and your comments...it's not really a "clip" point, nor is it truly double edged, yet the blade, from the point it begins its downward curve on the top/back at the front, is every bit as sharp as the whole more normal cutting edge, completely unlike any bolo I've ever seen,thus giving it a wicked sharp spearpoint with a massively heavy chopping edge. As for being for a lower class, I would instantly aggree, as the dilapidated old scabbard too conveys a sense of an average tribal level individual......one of the things that has kept this piece one of my favorites is the "feel", which actually is more comfortable, powerful and lethal than either of my pitiful barongs. Again, thank you. [This message has been edited by Conogre (edited 08-08-2001).] IP: Logged
Ian Senior Member	posted 06-15-2002 14:47 One of these very unusual swords just sold on eBay (# 2111354527). No scabbard unfortunately. I will post better pictures of it when it arrives. Ian. IP: Logged
Lee Jones EEWRS Staff	posted 06-26-2002 05:39 Received from Ian IP: Logged

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