RAKSASA & Buta Bajang Figure Hilts

Rick · 16th May 2009, 04:54 PM

Glad to have you here Erik .
One more voice, one more perspective .

Forgot !
Think I have a bearded example ..

David · 16th May 2009, 05:56 PM

Hey Rick, i've got that same guy on two of my hilts. All of the elements are pretty much exactly the same so this is definitely a pattern from one particular area.

Marcokeris · 16th May 2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Glad to have you here Erik .
One more voice, one more perspective .

Forgot !
Think I have a bearded example ..

...another bearded brother

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 12:46 AM

Here's a few more.

Sorry for the quality of these pics, but its all I've got time to do right now.

erikscollectables · 17th May 2009, 11:34 AM

How old are these figural hilts?
The four I started this thread with all seem to be very old.
Most of the ones I have seen so far seem quite old and often quite worn.
The 4 I have I think (without any supporting proof) are 19th century or older.
Is there any dating possible on any of these?
Jensen works with data from old collections so he has sustainable proof.
With our items it is more difficult but are there hints to date the hilts approximately?

Regards, Erik

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 12:19 PM

I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik.

There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on.

I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago.

The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing.

But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things.

Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.

Jussi M. · 6th September 2010, 10:41 PM

Up!

16th May 2009, 04:54 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Glad to have you here Erik . One more voice, one more perspective . Forgot ! Think I have a bearded example .. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 16th May 2009 at 05:21 PM.

17th May 2009, 12:46 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Here's a few more. Sorry for the quality of these pics, but its all I've got time to do right now. Attached Images

17th May 2009, 11:34 AM	#5
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Age? How old are these figural hilts? The four I started this thread with all seem to be very old. Most of the ones I have seen so far seem quite old and often quite worn. The 4 I have I think (without any supporting proof) are 19th century or older. Is there any dating possible on any of these? Jensen works with data from old collections so he has sustainable proof. With our items it is more difficult but are there hints to date the hilts approximately? Regards, Erik

16th May 2009, 05:56 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hey Rick, i've got that same guy on two of my hilts. All of the elements are pretty much exactly the same so this is definitely a pattern from one particular area.

17th May 2009, 12:19 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I cannot date any of my older ones, Erik. There are a few current era ones mixed in with the ones I've provided pics of, and I can recognise these, but generally its just guesswork with older ones. If the carving is smooth and worn it is certain to have a bit of age, but how much? Your guess is as good as mine. Regretably old hilts in Indonesia often are scrubbed clean and sometimes refinished with french polish or lacquer, so you very often do not have any patina to base a guess on. I do not believe that reference to old hilts in European collections is a valid way to estimate the age of most hilts, for the simple reason that patterns and styles repeat over many years:- you can see the same patterns produced now as were produced +200 years ago. The ivory and bone hilts are easier with the patina, because these don't get scrubbed or repolished, but even so, you're just guessing. But they get up to another little trick with ivory and bone that can make a hilt look much, much younger than it really is:- they go to work on old worn hilts with a dentists drill and deepen and freshen up the carving, then re-patinate. Somewhat different standards in Indonesia in respect of these things. Because of historical sources we can be pretty certain that the patterns go back to at least the 15th century, and very probably prior to that, but dating an individual hilt with any supportable accuracy is beyond me.

6th September 2010, 10:41 PM	#7
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Up!